600+ hp @ 5000 rpm

[CDMA]

The numbers say it all. I have to leave for New Orleans so I can't post the dyno sheets but I will when I get back.

It is a really long story and after 2 days on the dyno we got 615 hp and 650+ lbs of torque. There probably was a little more to be had but we wanted to keep it pretty conservative for longevity. This is out of a mild 454 with 5-6 psi of boost. The engine is a 454 with blower pistons, roller everything, a little bit more cam, manley severs duty stainless and inconel valves, balanced blueprinted, ported, and a bunch more other little things. This is set up with headers but 2 sets of mufflers to try to replicate some of the conditions in the boat. I can not say enough about Scott at Advanced Racing and Machine. Really a stand up guy that went above and beyond the call of duty. I would use him again.

Just for fun we also made some pulls without the blower and got 450 hp and 500 lbs of torque.

The procharger was quiet the experience and despite that it puts up some obviously monster numbers it does have it's downsides. I will be happy to talk to anyone interested.

Not sure if I will be posting at all have a great winter and see you in the spring.

Chris

[Bryan Tuvell 33ZX]

CDMA, she sounds like an awesome beast...
I always follow your posts...
If you get a chance us "readers" would like your thoughts on the negatives etc that you mentioned....
Bryan

[CDMA]

Bryan et al,

Well if you are interested in my thoughts so far here we go. Knowing what I know now I still believe most likely in terms of superchargers the best option is the Whipple. However due to cost this was not an option for me so I had to look at some more cost effective options.

These other options are primarily the procharger or a roots blower. Both ( Used prices) are about $2500 ( depending on a lot) or so for a good used set up. It cost me about that to get into my late model low hour procharger. Keep in mind that all of the systems I am refering to are carb not fuel injection systems.

The advantages to the procharger is that it is trendously more efficient, better fuel economy, progressive boost, no hatch clearance issues and intercooled. However with these advantages come disadvantages. First of all it is a rather complicated system, it is difficult to set up and everyone I talk to says it never seems just to bolt on like they say it will. On top of that the carb now sits in an enclosed box that is pressurized. This creates its own problems. First the carb is out of sight therefore you can't see problems easily. Also every adjustment requires the removal of the box top and the carb. Sort of a pain. This carb in the box also has some tuning implications. As the boost changes so does the density of the air. The problem with this is that a carb can not measure the density of the air. It basically means we need to manipulate the carb so that at the varying boost levels we still are running rich enough. This usually results in some black transom problems but I can deal with that. Finally one thing which took me by suprise was the volume of this thing. It is LOUD. At idle when we first started it up I thought for sure it was trash but after a talk with my procharger rep he said that at idle they tend to clank and make some rather odd noises due to vibrations coming from the crankshaft. As the rpm increases the noises go away and a loud whistle comes into play. That sounds cool and the guy at procharger said that I would be amazed how much quieter this thing is when it actually is in the boat and off the vibrating open to the air dyno. So we will have to see about that.

I guess the one thing that bothers me the most is the complexity. There was a 454 similar to mine with a weiand 256 and 2 holley 800's on it right next to my engine. After dealing with the complexity of the procharger I was envious of the simplicity of this set up and that it took him 2 hours on the dyno and it took me 2 days. The roots style blowers do lack some of the efficiency of the procharger style blowers but what they lose is gained in simplicity. I am a little uncomfortable with a non intercooled system however.

So that is where we stand. I am happy with the results but I am honestly considering if I want to sell the procharger and head to the roots style blower. Well I have 2 months on a boat to think about it.

Chris

P.S. The sound this thing makes is absolutley amazing.

You realy should go to bed early when you are leaving at 4 am for New Orleans....

[BigGrizzly]

Jus to clarify some stuff. Mine fit easily. The problem was finding the right altnator belt after relocation. Hoses to the air box was difficult untill I found I was using the wrong hose so I swapped them that was fine after that. The jetting was a little bit of a pain especially since my priority was drivability. Since I new the cam and the carb was made for the blower by Demond this took some of the problems away. However since Johnny ( the Dyno king) and Garry Grimes are never satisfied . Garry and drivability are like Bryan Tuvell and cleaning his boat. It took some time the first tume with breaking in the motor on the dyno. all in all it took 4 hours from start to finish. The box is a little hard but from My old Paxton Mustang days in the late 1960's it seemed like old home week. I make a point not to be in the dyno with the engine running for safty reasons. I also hear strange noises and chase my tail. So I fly by the guages and the computor output.
After doing a roots blower with ajusting the pop offr valve. They are complicated, only jetting is slightly simpler-to me. O2 sesors in the exhaust pipe help the jetting monitoring the fuel ratio of the exhaust. They do need a intercooler. Merc gets away with out one on its 575 se because it rund just over 500HP ( not 575) with just over 7:1 compresson ratio. I do beleive roots may be more durable, after they have been around a long time. Last week a old racer showed me a picture of his flathead Ford with a blower on it back in the 1950's. Centriphicles are relitivly new - so only time will tell. Sounds like Chris has a good start on a good unit. Will wait for more news at 11:00 or sometme.

Randy

[GEOO]

HUM!!! Interesting!! 22, Arneson, 600+hp, tranny. Doesn't sound like Grandma's boat.
GEOO

[CDMA]

Grandma!!!! My mom doesn't even like it ;)

One of things I thought of was with the procharger if something is to go wrong inside the blower and as long as it doesn't blow your engine you can easily just pull the hose and remove the belt enabling you to limp home. If you had a roots blower failure this would not be possible.

Another thing that I find attractive about the procharger is, and this may sound odd, but in a couple hours I can just ditch the whole thing and drop on the 950 holley that is prejetted for my engine and run around with 450 hp. While this is not something that I would commonly do if I was going to run my boat a long distance ( aka to Florida or offshore to an Island up here) I might want to run without the blower for a few reasons. First being fuel economy and on top of that it lessesn the likelyhood of a breakdown when offsore.

Chris

P.S. Thanks to Rick and Tommie Ryan for putting me and my friend up on the way to New Orleans

[BigGrizzly]

I don't want to be the one to tell you but a 950 cfm Is way too big. My 502 Procharger has a 825 Cfm.at 690+ HP and with a 750CFM and no blower it puts out 525 HP. With the 825 Cfm(no blower) rejetted it puts out 529 HP with smaller power band and actually less torque. It also uses about 7 pounds per hour(not gallons) more fuel than with the 750CFM.

Nice talking to you last night befor you left-Keep safe have fun and learn alot.

Randy

[KMLFAMILY]

CK. OUT WWW.PROJECT33.COM (http://WWW.PROJECT33.COM) FOR SOME INTERESTING BLOWER MOTOR BUILD UP IDEAS. HAPPY NEW YEARS TO ALL.

[CDMA]

Grizz funny you should say that. I was as taken back as you were. I have always been under the impression that people over carb thier engines unncessarily. For the dyno tests we used the following

Supercharged: 650 holley and a 750 holley

Natural : 650, 750 and a 950 holley race carb

With the blower the 650 and a the 750 were neck and neck in power and the all around charecteristics of the 650 were better so we spent most of the time jetting that set up correctly.

After that when we went to the natural set up we actually started with the 650 because it was already on the engine. That gave us 410 hp. After switching to the 750 we got 421. Now I had brought down a really nice 950 just cause I had it and why not. We tossed that on and right away pulled 442. We all were a little suprised and after a few jet changes we got to 450 even. And all around torque and even off idle transition seemed relatively unaffected. The 950 made 30 more pounds of torque as well and had a generally better torque curve. We all were a little shocked so we put the 750 back on and figured we messed up the jetting. So after an hour playing with that we still bested at 423. Still suprised another an 750 went on and still no better. SO all I can say is that the dyno doesn't lie. I am aware that the bigger the carb in general the worse the low end can be but even with the 950 the low end was as good if not better. I have no explanation for this but see no reason to run a 750 if the 950 pulled better on the dyno. Well fuel economy maybe but I will take the 20 + hp first.

Chris

Overlooking Bourbon street...where are my beads....

[GEOO]

Chris,
Stop looking out the window and start writing your paper!!!
Hey, maybe I can borrow that blower for "Mighty Mouse" ??? What do you think?? GEOO

[Shanghied Again]

Chris sounds awesome! And GEO ok thats all you need? a blower a can of Nitros at the Radar shoot out! You will blow by Jet Set! eek.gif

[BigGrizzly]

Chris I'm surprised as well.I have done sinilar test several times times and came up short. Was the carb a Real race carb - mo chokeand a milled of top and manual linkage with 4 coner squirters. Also did you look at the pounds of fuel used and what was the difference. IF the dyno says so they don't lie, but I just don't see it. Did you put the 950 race carb on blower, maybe there is more yet with that carb? The blower sure has enough volune for it.

Randy

[CDMA]

Geoo,

Man can't I be faster than you for just one day please....

Griz, The 950 was a full bore race carb. No choke. etc ect.

[Formula Jr]

I went 35 MPH faster than Geoo once!

Then again, I was Sky Diving.... smile.gif

[HP 600SC]

My favorite are the root's type all the way.
Carburators actually work right on them
as they are sucking air from underneeth
the carb, the way a carb was designed to work.
Guess Mercury is partial to the root's style
also.....thats all they offer. I kinda look at all
the other styles as a time bomb ticking away.
Ok now for the disclaimer
(Ted M.'s opinion does not reflect the opinion
of the management of this station or its sponsors)

Ted M.

[CDMA]

Ted,

YOu are exactly right and that is one of the reasons I am considering switching to a roots blower. With the procharger you basicaly have to trick the carb into working right. Not the best but it works. The real problem I have with the roots blowers are that it costs another $2000 just to intercool it not to mention then I have to drill a big hole in my hatch. I know mercruiser does without intercooling but I am not sure I can be comfortable with that. Not to mention I would have to sacrafice about 100 hp. I want to be able to at lease SEE GEoo's exhaust tips... wink.gif

Chris

Where did all those beads go...oh yeah last night...hmmmmmmmmmm

[BigGrizzly]

Geoo's exhaust tips -well he has more HP and weigh is alot less this could be fun.

Your theory on tricking the carb is not quite correct. Its called pressure equalization. Althoe I really don't like any superdharger(or turbo charger), mine came as a surprise and need, It works well. I have 185 hours on mine and it was used. The supercharger hasn't given me any trouble, yet. I can't say that for thoes high performance race/ Merc/ Chevy parts thoe. As for durability of a Centriphel charger, well my kid has over 40,000 miles on his with no failures.

Randy

[turbo2256]

Just woundering if you are blowing through the carb in a box do you have all the carb circits working power valve etc? Did you richen the secondarys a bit or inlarge the PVC chanel?

[BigGrizzly]

I'm not sure whch one your refering to me ot Chris. all prichargers are in a box and the pvc is not used (mine doesn't have one at all). The carbs are required to be manual Double pumpers. My carb was made for me by Demon. no vaccum circuits at all holes are not machined. Don't know about Chris's. Procharger had a bad rap on the blower bearings, some were faulty, the problem has been corrected about 2-3 years ago.
If you guys are looking for time bombs, just consider this. The weight of the rotors the length of the rotors and the latteral plus vertical harmonics andwhat happens when a bearing fails on one of thoes. I have seen the result of one of these coming appart. point is in to days day and age most stuff is pretty good what ever way you go. Remember a centriphal charger is just like a turbo with a belt driving it instead of exhaust, they work great in airplanes. The weakest point of either setup is the belt, what happens if it breaks? with a roots you stop. with the other kind you do oneof two thing, 1) just drive home slowly, 2) removes the hoseto the box and drive home slowly. Remember the boat usually breaks at the farthest point from the dock.

Randy

[CDMA]

My carb is set up how Grizz is as well.

I have to differ on my carb "theory" though. When using a blow through system you need to decrease the size of the carb to increase the booster signal so the engine gets enough fuel. A carb can not account for the density of the air passing through so this needs to be made up in the carb. Since as boost increases so does density this creates a problem. In a blow through system in a car ( carb only) where rpm constantly is changing it is hard to set up the carb so that it can account for all the changing densities of the air as boost increases and decreases. A boat is easier because generally a boat runs in a manner that the rpm is less varied then in a car. You set the carb up to be optimized at higher rpms and sacrifice a little in lower end ( aka you wind up with a slightly to rich mixture which is never a horrible thing in a blower motor). The differences here may I remind you are all relatively small. We are not talking about an engine that at mid speed is bogging down cause it is so rich. Desite what anoyne says there is no way around this unless you go to fuel injection where the mass airflow sensor can actually determine the mass of the air not just the volume as a carb does. You also make up for this in the stages of the carb. That is for example why my engine runs 78's in the primaries and 98's in the secondaries. This is a HUGE jump but if you think about it as the rpm increases so does the boost and therefore the density of the air. This requires more fuel so the jump will be larger. A three stage carb would be even better but there is no such thing. There has been talk about setting up the system using the old holley dial a mile system hooked to a boost gauge but in reality it becomes so complicated it just makes more sense to go to EFI.

Griz, I do not know what you are refering to when you say pressure equalization. Is there more to that than you posted. I can not follow what you are referring to by that. Am I missing something.

Chris

Let the tearing apart of my statements begin...

[Jamesbon]

Glad to hear the 950 worked best. I'm using a 980 modified by Nickerson Performance. I have 10.3:1 compression in the 508ci, World products Merlin Marine heads and a hyd. roller cam @ .575 lift - 254/260 @ .050 - and .308/314 duration. That "M.F." should sing!

[GEOO]

Nat sound's like fun. GEOO

[ClassicRazorback]

Thanks for all the info.
I would like to get a Whipple this summer, but I'll probally only get S.S. exhaust.
I can't wait to see all your boats!

chris

[BigGrizzly]

The pressure equalization is the reason your carb is in a box. The whole carb in is pressuried so not only the venturies are pressurized. That is why you have a boost actuated fuel pressure. I disagree with the mass air theory. Especially since it relies on O2 sensors for fuel management. Since the carb is in a box it is all realitive. The car thing isn't true either. I have had a Paxton in the mid 1960 and found drivability and fuel management fine. The car has less variation than a boat, because there is no slip between the engine and road in a manual trans and very little in todays automattics. The boat has a continuous and variable slip in the prop. Merc fuel injection system either on the standard injection or the 575SC system is just a simple engine management system which is managed by rpm's and a knock sensor. Back in the 1950's we had a three stage carb setup, we called it trips or three duces back than. The only way your going to get good fuel management is with O2 sensors in the exhaust. To date there is only one that works with getting wet is the Honda 225 fuel injected outboard. Yes Honda had O2 sensor controled carbs back in the 1980's (in the Accord), I used to work with them before the fuel injected system when I worked in Honda auto division. Here is another fact and not theory. You can get more HP from a carb system than a fuel injected system. Ask Geoo what happens when he puts the carb system on his engine.
Remember that in a auto they now ( most of them)have port injection so there is no suck through supercharged system they are all blow through.

The reason you use a smaller carb on your system, is to heep the boost pressure and velosity more even so the operator doesn't have to use Miller Cycle type cam. The charge blowing right through into the exhaust without being used is a problem with all superchargers, roots or otherwise. The other problem is actually blowing out the spark, which is another reason for specialized blower cams. I have one of these in my motor. The drivability and fuel economy of my engine is as good as any fuel injected 502cid with the same HP, blown or otherwise. ask anyone who has ridden in or driven my boat. This is real world not just theory.

Randy

[CDMA]

Ok so :

“ Blow through Systems

If you could leave the carburetor intake manifold distributor and so on in place in your engine, add a supercharger on a front mounted bracket like an alternator, and then run a big air pressure hose into the top of the carb from the blower- that would be a pretty simple way to supercharge your motor. Such a set up is know as a blow through system where-by the supercharger pumps dry air into the carburetor or EFI. EFI systems lend themselves very well to blow through supercharging in general. The following discussion however will relate primarily to carb blow through system.

A blow through design certainly simplifies and speeds up the blower installation process. And to be quite honest most applications that we have seen at moderate boost levels seem to work quiet well without any fussy tuning. However blowing compressed air through the mouth of the carb does poes some problems.

On the theoretical side the compressed air passing through the carb venturies when the blower is making boost will be denser than the same quantity of air sucked through a top mounted roots style blower. That is the mass of the air is greater but the volume is smaller. The problem is that the carb venturies sense the air velocity, which is dependant to on volume. Consequently the carb would not feed the proper fuel into this denser air stream. Of course the jetting can and should be increased to keep the air/fuel ratio compatible with blower boost. But on a street given car the blower only gets to high boost a small percentage of the time. So if the carb is jetted for the dense air it will be too rich under most driving circumstances. Now remember we are talking theoretically here. In actual practice a blow through carb can be set up richer on the secondary side which will come into play when you are getting full boost. .”

Pat Ganahl Street Supercharging

This is where some of what I said comes from. If what this guy says about the change of air density is wrong so be it. Griz I can appreciate that you have a drivable engine but I just cannot see all you say. According to this a carb engine puts out more power, which I know is true. And yours runs as well in terms of fuel economy and drivability as an efi. If all this is true why is the increasing trend to EFI??? I mean if what you say is correct how come everyone just doesn’t ditch their efi systems for good old-fashioned carbs with or without blowers. I also fail to see how a car has less variation in terms of rpm then a boat. Every time you stop in a car it is up and down the rpm range at least 3 times. In a boat what rpm ranges are you running in? Sure a lot less variation getting on plane once and staying at a 3000+ rpm cruising speed. I sure won’t lose sleep over it if from 2000-3000 rpm my set up is not completely optimized. I want the thing to be set to run at its highest level above 3000 rpm where I will spend the majority of my time.

I have had enough of this…I am proud of 615 hp and my understanding of how it works and why…nuff said. Going to take my theory and obvious lack of real world experience and let the 22 speak for itself. Becoming more difficult to share what I learn...

...catch you on the flip side...eyeing that 350 foot crew boat I get to leave on soon. Not sure how far this thing is going to work offshore.

Chris

Geoo give me a call one night.

[Formula Jr]

This is incredable stuff, Chris KEEP it coming!!!!!!! biggrin.gif

[turbo2256]

Was just woundering because those circuits can be made to work in a box.

[GEOO]

wink.gif , GEOO

[Woodsy]

Hola Chris...

Pretty cool numbers from your motor. I need you to bring me back some beads... ya, thats it beads.... oh ya... and some hurricane mix from Pat O'Briens.... For a freak show, you gotta check out the Dungeon... the place opens at midnight....

As far as the discussion on this thread goes, I have hesitated to add my opinion, because it is radically different. But, some of you guys are really reaching some way off base conclusions.

A carbureted motor will NOT make more hp than an a PROPERLY set up EFI. I know in GEOO's case this was true, but I would argue that the EFI was not set up properly. An EFI is infinitely more tuneable than a carb. But then again it is also alot more complex. It also doesn't have that awesome Holley 4V sound... You need the computer programmed specifically for your engines setup, bigger injectors, tuned manifolds etc... I could get into the specifics, but there are intake & exhaust pulses, flow, air density (mass), air flow (velocity) etc. People need to remember, automotive mfg's spend millions of dollars perfecting these systems. Most aftermarket EFI upgrades are compromises or patches to an existing system, trying to get it to work beyond its original design parameters. Because an EFI is so adaptable, and can adjust itself for varying conditions, like air density & velocity, it is perfect for use with superchargers. Carburetors, however, are not as adaptable. A carb that is tuned to run great at sea level will melt your motor at Lake Havasu unless you rejet & retune. Also, a carb that is set up properly for a superchager will run extremely rich at low boost... giving you that wonderful blackened transom effect.

As far a few other comments made, You cannot blow out the spark from a modern high energy ignition system. 50,000 volts will jump a .040 gap in a tornado. Secondly, if the intake valve is still open when the spark fires, you will have a tremendous backfire through your intake, especially if you are under boost at the time. Marine motors and Automotive engines are different. An old paxtion setup on a mustang will not live long subjected to boost at maximum rpm. Run a paxton blown 289 @ 5000rpm for more than a few minutes and the detonation that results will scatter the motor all over the road.

Chris has it right as far as carb size vs. density compensation goes. On a centrifugal supercharger, as boost increases so does air density. Thats why the HUGE jump in jets. Because, the air is compressed BEFORE the fuel is introduced. This means the way a carb functions must change.
In a standard Roots system, the carb is on top, thus the air & fuel is mixed BEFORE it is compressed. A much easier & simpler system. Your carb works as it was intended, based on the velocity of the air flowing thru the venturis.
In an EFI situation, it doesn't really matter what type of supercharger you use, because either way the air is compressed prior to the fuel being introduced. It just matters whether you want a variable boost system (Procharger) or a constant boost system (Whipple). The EFI computer, because it can sense air density, air speed, engine knock and a few other variables can adjust the spark curve and injector pulse (amount of fuel) to compensate for the denser air from the supercharger. It has taken the aftermarket a little while to figure out how to reprogram an EFI computer, but they are pretty darn close now.

Sorry for the long post, but there was alot of wrong information floating around. I am sure that some people have been lucky, and have a turn key boat, thats a tribute to the people who engineered it. It wasn't to long ago when boats were considered highly unreliable.

Dave

[BigGrizzly]

I work for a auto manufacturer. We went to injection for two reasons 1) it was easier th meet different emissions standards with just a change in the ECM. 2) Cost- the big one. In 1986 a Honda Accord was $78 cheaper(manufacturing cost) than a carb model. Not much untill you multiply it by 800,000 units. The others found it true also.

Carbs vs injectors. sorry but your opinion differes than most High performance people including Mercury. Just last week
i saw a Merc inject engine pull more horse power with a carb just put on, than the injection it came with. This was done at a shop by a guy that Merc has been trying to hire for two years to head their Four stroke HP division. I saw This myself. I will say that it did idle better with the injection tho. I'm not saying one is better but they are equal if set up correctly

Hetre are some past theories. 1963 HotRod mag the 8 second barrier will not be broken. than in 1970 the sais the 6 second- not untill 2000. Motor Ternd 150 Horse power is the maximum for a front wheel drive car.

The reason the jets are large is because of density-true but also in a pull through the power valve enriches the system with the vaccum. in the supercharger box there is no vaccume only pressure bosters are not used.. the box pressuries the whole carb, float chambers and all. If it didn't the boost would push the fuel back down the fuel line, or at least keep it from being pumped in. I read most of thoes books some are good some are poor and out dated.

Here is the final fact "He with the most money wins". Chris This is a discussion I'm not beating you up, just showing thoes inquiring minds what they want to know. I do have one question,. If Prochargers are so bad, why did you buy one? Yes money. Now its up for sale. Then you will throw more money at the other system. There are only two ways to make Horse Power-" More bangs or bigger bangs" its just that simple. The more fuel and air you use(correctly) the more power you make.

Randy

[Voodoocanoe]

In APBA Offshore Factory class racing which uses the Mercury HP500(carb)and HP500efi, If your boat has the HP500efi you get a weight penality of 250lbs for F-1 and 400lbs for F-2. Both of these engines have an advertised HP rating of 470HP but the reason that the EFI's are penalized is because they have a broader more usable TQ curve which is an advantage when powering out of a turn and acclerating up to top speed. Also it is legal for the carb motors to be bored out.030" to 509cid without a weight penality but the efi's must remain 502cid no overbores. So obviously there is an advantage to having a fuel injection set up.
I have spent 20,000+hrs running engines on a Dynamometer and mapping fuel/spark curves etc etc
and in my opinion except for complexity, fuel injection has many advantages over carburation.

[GEOO]

HUM, I have no good input!!! Maybe I need to test out one of these, M3 Procharger, large intercooled.things??? smile.gif GEOO rolleyes.gif
Let me see a F.A.S.T. ECU, 55lbs. injectors, 10:1, 5-6lbs boost??? too much heat?? Control heat build up with 1)Air Intake temp & boost controlled, water injection, 2)VP's C-10 or Performance Unleaded, 3) maybe a 8-10 gallons of toluene mixed in with the fuel, 4)small hit of NOS to cool the charge. ECU controlled timing retard if needed based on lbs of boost. Hum could it work?? rolleyes.gif rolleyes.gif

[BigGrizzly]

There are advantages to fuel injection. but it isn't instant horse power. Heres one, in 1986 Honda prouced an Accord with a ecm monitored carb, the results were the same as the injected models. We produced that engine for only 2 years and quit because of price reductions better known as cost-down production.

There are more differences between thoes two motors than just the injection, which is the real reason for the restriction. As for the over bore rule that.030 was set so clean up could be done and also the use of superstock blocks could be used. Besides that 7cid in that configuration won't produce a win or lose sitiuation.

News flash Merc isn't going to introduce their 1000Hp engine at the Miami show, because of supercharger problems( I read that failures)

Randy

[CDMA]

Scot,

Hope this explains it.

“ Another peculiarity with the bow through systems is that the carb and the fuel systems must be pressurized to match the blower boost. If you simply pressurized air from the blower into the mouth of the carb what would happen? In the first place if the carb fuel reservoir were vented to the atmosphere the main jets would deliver no fuel into the air stream since the venturi effect lies on the pressure drop in the venturi to siphon fuel from the bowl. If there is pressure in the carb throat instead of vacuum it would blow the carb out the carb instead of into the air stream.”

Same book

Chris


Finally seeing where the beef comes from…but trying hard to avoid anymore of this BS

[BigGrizzly]

Woodsy, You forgot this is a four stroke which has a compression and a valve overlap stroke,in which both valves are open at the same time. The system is still pressurized at the intake level. As for the spark blow out, This is a real issue in man applications. You would feel it if one cylinder dropped it 40 times at 5000 rpms, butthe scope and the O2 sensors will pick it up. Don't beleive me Call Champion tech Department and ask if its possable or it happens. I have been there. As for the injection engines Vs the carb engines - well Mecury's most powerfull production engine is carbureted, check it out on their web site.

Chris as for BS, You were the One that E-mailed me to call you because you wanted to ask questions, then you tell me that my answers wrong. The way you present things is one sided. You tell the board how it took 6 hours to jet the carb but told me it took 4 of thoes hours to find the bad brand new MSD distributor. Your engine sounds good,I never downed it, just you beating on the procharger. There is very little difference between your 615HP engine and my 698HP engine except that I built mine a little different than your guy built yours. Cool down, your taking this all too pesonally.

Randy

[CDMA]

Griz,

I am sorry but this is crazy. Talk about mis representaion. I personally asked you in a private e mail when I was about to buy my procharger how your engine reliability was with the procharger. Not to mention flat out lying to another board member about "not getting on it due to a tranny noise" in Sarasota. I am getting sick and tired of this. First of all get your facts straight. I spent 2 days on the dyno probably 10 running hours not 6. So that leaves about 6 MORE after the faulty MSD for tuning. Maybe you heard wrong. And I am not about to through money around. HE WITH THE MOST MONEY DOES NOT WIN. You are right my procharger is for sale for MORE than I paid for it. If someone will pay MORE than what I paid for it I MAY consider going to a roots blower. These are all things I am considering. If the "facts" some board memebers had told me were true when I bought my procharger maybe the results would have been different. I do not pretend the procharger is the perfect set up and I acknowldge its decifincies as I do with a roots blower set up. I will not pretend it is the perfect set up and I will tell the board my observations of its positive and negative experiences. Now back to the he how has the most money wins. That is over the edge. I am 19 years old and I do not have some trust fund or billionare dad. I made all the money for my boats myself. When I was 15 I started a marine detailing business. At 17 I had my own industrial space, 3 employees and a full time business. My dad, a financial guru, took all my money and invested it for me. A few good investments later ( IBM, amazon...etc) that money I busted my ass for tripled. Today desite being in college there still is "Allard Marine Service" and despite the fact I have little time to work anymore I still make money from it. At 1/3 the cost of marinas and twice the quality business is not hard to find. Not to mentions what are my costs. I live at home for free. I go to collge for free. I bought my truck for cash. All I have to pay for is gas and Donzi's ( luckily the girl friend is low maintainece) Despite being in college my business still goes on and I am not ashamed of it and until now I have never had to explain where my money came from. On top of that I bet my 22 despite the exotic powertrain will cost less than the average used 22 on the market. Heck I think after I finish my 22 if I desire I could sell it easily for a PROFIT.

Chris

[Woodsy]

Chris & Grizzly...

Now you two boys need to settle down a little bit. Chris, you don't have to justify where your money comes from, nobody does. Your business has done you and your father proud. There is nothing wrong with making a profit and you need to make no explanations to anyone at all! The one point where you are mistaken and I will have to agree with Grizzly on is "He with the most $$ is usually the fastest". But, what nobody mentioned was "he on the budget is usually alot more resourceful." Chris, if I hit powerball tomorrow, I could completely outspend you and have the fastest 22... steal your ideas, put the Arneson behind a 1100SC or maybe a ridiculously large Paul Pfaff motor. End result, I win the speed contest. So what! You however win the ingeniuty & resourcefulness contest. You thought of it, you executed the plan, and you are succesful. You would have the same boat for 1/4 of the $$... who looks like the fool now? I do for spending a ridiculous amnount of $$. You gotta remember this coming from someone who practically stole thier 22... wink wink!! Keep up the good work!

Griz, I know quite a bit about 4 stroke valve overlap. As for the spark blowing out, that is more the fault of the ignition than it is of the spark plug and intake velocity. I'll bet Champion recommended a higher voltage ignition system. A spark plug will fire underwater with enough voltage. The intake velocity of a blown motor is the same as a normally aspirated one. The boost pressure has very little to do with the velocity of the intake pulse. That is related to piston speed, cylinder volume and valve size & lift. Its just simple physics.

As for the whole fuel injection issue, just because Mercury Racings highest HP offering is carburated, it doesn't mean anything. All of the fuel injection units on our boats were not developed by Mercury marine. They were developed by GM. Mercury Marine does not have the $$$ to develop its own fuel injection. As for high HP motors, there is nothing on the 1100 SC that you can't buy yourself at either Summit or PAW. Its old news, old technology. Now, if you want to get into a pissing contest as far as Carb vs fuel inj, thats fine. But I assure you, you will lose. I will point to FIA Formula 1... a 3.0 liter , FUEL INJECTED, F1 motor makes anywhere between 900 to 1000hp. Now, where money is absolutely no object in F1, why don't they use carburators? Because they could never get those kind of numbers from a carbed motor.... Enough said.

Woodsy biggrin.gif

[CDMA]

Woodsy,

I agree. Fair enough, Griz truth. I am not trying to piss anyone off by any means.
And I apologize.

Chris

100 ton master USCG license test tomorrow....
rolleyes.gif

[Sagbay32]

Chris,
As far as the gross toneage thing goes you got most or all of us beat hands down biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

Donzi = Fun remember guys wink.gif

[Bryan Tuvell 33ZX]

Far be it for me to add any wisdom but it is a free world.

I will add I had a big difference of opinion over a couple of my posts with one person from this board and it was ugly for a bit, my sticking my hand out and talking to the person in person when we met was the best thing I ever done. I felt good about it and have what I consider a friend for years to come! If he reads this I hope he agrees and remains silent to this reply.

As far as this thread technically goes, I am lost of course... read every darn word though...

So did you guys watch survivor tonight?
I tried to tell Nancy it was a mans world...
NOT!
Boaters=Type A, we are always right, I know I am!
In my mind at least! smile.gif
Peace, love.... I need another beer....
Bryan

[Scott Pearson]

Now,If I won the "Power Bowl" I would sell everything and live as a hermit under a bridge somewhere warm. I would live in a big box and take my craps in little boxes (So I can throw them out easy or let them float down stream)

Then I would catch little fish with some of the elastic in my stained underwear so I would be able to catch big fish. I would only eat the tail off the big fish and then suff the rest of the fish with smushed up cardboard that I had left over from the box that I took a crap in earler. I would then hang the fish over the cutout door in my big cardboard box.

Then when I got bored I would have someone that I didn't know take some of my power bowl money and go out and by me new underwear and toilet paper. This way I could fill the little boxes that I float down stream with dirty toilet paper,crap and skid marked underwear. I would still wear my Lake George Donzi shirt all the time. Even after I ran out of toilet paper and used it a few times. So what if it has a few bacon strip staines on it.

Then I would grow my nose hair really long so I could scare all the little kids away that come around to bring me more little boxes that I flote down stream with those goodies that I fill them up with.

Then when I got really really bored I would scratch my ass against one of the bridges rotted out posts and have the birds pull the splinters out so they can make there nests with. Yup...Ass Splinters.

Now that I have a plan....I gotta go play LOTTO!


(NJ)Scott

[Sagbay32]

OOOOHHHHHH, Too funny!
and the Creative writing award goes to.....

ROTFLMAO

[BigGrizzly]

Woodsy, What velosity of the intake pulse. We were talking about the velosity of a air through a small carb vs a large carb and keeping it more even(constant). With the engine size being a constant, the smaller carb will have higher velosity at the same Rpms providing it is at a rpm range that is above an idle. The same volume of air through a smaller venturie in the same time period would have a higer velosity. When I was talking about blowing a unused mixture into the exhaust it was at the valve overlap. During this time there is no spark, except in some motor cycle multicyclinder application where spark is ignited every time the piston is moving twards top dead center ( I'm talking four stroke). Doing it this way the builder doesn't have to usea special cam for a supercharger such as a Miller Cycle or a similar type of cam.
I'm not going to go any farther on the injection vs carb because your not going to change me and I'm not going to change you. In real world application of cars and boats I do prefer fuel injection over carbs. I also prefer normaly aspirated engines over supercharged (of any sort) or turbo charging. If I could get that kind of horse power out of my engine with out getting too radical and expensive I would have taken that avenue.

Randy

[Formula Jr]

Chris, you don't need to applogize for anything. What you are doing is facinating. I think we're all just looking on and giving what we can - even if its alittle outdated........ you are on the bleeding edge we learn from.


He who does'nt care, Wins.

[Bryan Tuvell 33ZX]

CDMA, how about an update with some pictures, I told ya before I like to follow your tech threads, so give us a few visuals....

Will she be in KY? Hope so....

Bryan

[GEOO]

Scott, Get Help, soon!!! smile.gif GEOO

[bverd]

Scott... that isn't the same river you went boating with Cliff on? Sounds like the same description I heard a while back. Just adding to the charm aren't you?

[Voodoocanoe]

Personally, I don't know CDMA from Adam, but from what I have read here on the Registry CDMA has accomplished more in his boating endavors in 19yrs then most people twice his age, And if he contiues to advance in his marine career I am sure he will be very sucessful in it. Nuff said.

Big Grizz, There are no differences between the Hp500 and Hp500efi besides the obvious EFI and the CMI exhaust on the EFI engine.

Concerning the GIL manifolds on the HP500 the CMI's do not offer an advantage on the EFI at
the ECM limited RPM these engines operate at.Also the CMI's have the 15 1/2" primary's per APBA rules. And the HP500's get to introduce H2O 1.5" from the exh tip where as the HP500efi has
to be 3.5" from the exh tip.Which evens out any
advantage in the exhaust department.

You are correct, The carb engines can go .030 for rebuilding purposes ALTHOUGH many Factory teams I know take their brand new 0Hr
Hp500(carb)and bore them over.030 right from the get go SUPPOSEDLY FOR "CLEAN UP" but all this leads into balancing and resurfacing the deck and heads to basically blueprinting it, which is all legal per APBA rules so it's a little more than just an extra 7" cid and it CAN result in a "win or lose situation. The HP500'efi's however must remain std. bore, if you need to rebuild you have to install a std bore sleave no overbores period.

You mention "Use of Superstock blocks" that is INCORRECT, all blocks "must remain as produced by
the original manufacture" NO Merlin blocks or any other kind.

On the following posts, Woodsy is correct, Intake veloicity will not change by supercharging an engine, superchargers merely compress a mass of air, velocity is restricted to the mechanical pumping capabilities and RPM of that particular engine.

As far as "spark blowout" on a supercharged engine it is most likely caused by an inadequate ignition system since it is harder for spark to occur under pressure, more pressure the harder it is to spark that is the way it is. with increased cylinder pressures as seen on a supercharged engine and will result in a misfire the same goes for a Nitroused equipped engine.

[BigGrizzly]

Voodo, I guess the Merc catalogue is incorrect. It says the hp500EFI has 4.47 bore and 4.00 stroke that =502 it also has a 8.75:1 compression ratio. The Hp500 carb has a 4.44 bore and a 4.38 stroke which = 542 CDI. with a 8.6: compression ratio.

As for spark blow out it is a real thing and not just in supercharged engines. Believe me I do have enough spark. I was ruling out inadequate spark assuming that that was not an issue. I have only had this happen once on one of my race bikes. We ended up, after trying the surface gap plugs, was a redesigned combustion chamber from the stock configuration. I do realize that the rpm range in my application is significantly higher then the marine is. I'm not saying it happen every RPM but it can and does occur. In my situation I worked very close with Bobby Strome from Champion.

Randy

[GEOO]

Guys, I think they make two Carb hp500's. A Bull Dog, large cube, and a 502. GEOO

[BigGrizzly]

If Geoo is right , I did not know of the other one, its not in the 2001 racing catalogue.

In any case I'm just passing on information I've learned, I have been building engines and racing something since the early 1960's. I have no reason to lie about these things. I no longer make my living by doing this for the public anymore. I have worked with some pretty well known people before I got my job with American Honda. This experience and knowlegeis one of the reasons they hired me.

Randy

[Voodoocanoe]

Grizz, Geoo is 100% correct, the Merc Factory class HP500(502)is now discontinued, however the HP500(540)is still in production but cannot and never was used in Factory class racing.

So back to my previous post the engines are identical except for the items I stated, the Fuel Injected engine makes better use of the availabe Torque and therefore it is penalized.

I'm not doubting your expertise nor accusing you of lieing, I was expressing what I have learned in my testing experience. I am very familar of what happens in a combustion chamber, At work I use a DSP burn cart with Kistler pressure transducers in every cylinder at $9,000 each plus the MAP transducer, crank encoder, signal amplifiers, processor, hardware etc, which add up to approx $300,000 and it allows me to monitor the 4 stroke combustion process in all cylinders simultanously(sp)in real time such as location of peak pressure in relation to crank angle, detecting misfires, determining detonation before it is even audible and many other functions as well.