Alpha SS clone,,,,

[harbormaster]

OK all you marine experts.

Look at all the alphas out there on then there boats. Wouldn;t be nice to be able to raise your X dimension without doing transom modifications?

Why couldn't we put together an Alpha ss lower unit clone or something like an IMCO shorty that worked with Alphas? It would be alot more easier than swapping over to a complete bravo with IMCO shorty. Could also be cheaper.

We could do some cases that used alpha components.
Heck we could even adapt bravo internals. Anyone with connections interested in helping pursue this further?

Chris (CDMA) you interested? Brad lyons, or other machine shop person. How difficult would this be??

On the same subject.. Konrad Omega ss. Anyone heard of them? The manufacture Outdrives that bolt right up to mercuiser patterns. We have all been bitching about Mercruiser. Has anyone looked at Konrad's stuff? http://www.konradmarine.com/

[CDMA]

IMHO the real advantage to the SS lies in the shorter X not the crescent gear case. When I had an alpha what I looked into was the possibility and feasibility of actually taking a gen 1 alpha lower and shortening it. Cutting the case, removing 2", re-welding it, machining a shorter shaft, etc. It really is do able and not as hard as it sounds. I went back and forth and just realized I didn't want to put the effort into the alpha when I knew in the future I would be planning power upgrades that would push the ability of an alpha. That being said I think it is do able and fairly easily. There is very little engineering needed.

Chris

[harbormaster]

I saw the speed that Steve Marr got from his X18 by adding a black hawk and raising the x dimension. He is using a STOCK crate motor.
This has allowed him to go over 70 mph and not lose the dependability and longevity of a less modified engine.

[CDMA]

If people are seriously interested I will look into having it done. I know just the guys...

Scott,

That being said I don't think results like Stevie Marr's would be expected. While the raised X dimension is a part of it more of the reason Stevie Marr's boat runs so well has to do with the counter rotating surface piercing props.
I would guess a 3-5 mph increase with a 2" shorter lower and crescent case.

Chris

[clayman]

I would assume that with a shorter X-Dimension, we would lose the all important, scare the **** out of the passengers "Riding the rail" Donzi feature? It wouldn't get the prop bite for that would it? That is almost as fun as going WOT
James

[harbormaster]

I know what you mean james about the rail ride. My wife hates it.

Chris, what do you mean by "crescent case"?

I would swap out for a stronger out drive and 5 mph. I know folks who have dumped 6 grand in an engine and drive to go 8 mph faster.

[Formula Jr]

It has to be a "crescent fresh" case .... :D

[Woodsy]

Guys...

Not to rain on your brainstorming, but this idea will never work. The inherent problems with the Alpha setup are too difficult to overcome. First, the gears are to small to handle the stress loads placed on them now. Shorten the X, launch the props out of the water a few times and the result is a broken Alpha. The vertical drive shaft is too small in diameter for the torsional loads as well. Don't forget that wonderful thin walled upper housing. The reason the Alpha SS didn't fly, was that Merc knew all of the above, and the sandcast lower case was prohibitively expensive... they came out with the Bravo.... it improved on all of the mentioned problems....

Woodsy Von Donzi

[Dr. Dan]

:p Well ...There You Have It... :p

[CDMA]

There really is no arguing that the alpha isn't strong enough to do what we do to them. And without question raising the X dimension wouldn't help. That being said there are plenty of Alpha SS out there that are holding together and while I think it is a waste of effort to put so much time into the alpha I can see why someone would want to and I think it could be made to work with a reasonable amount of sucess as long as the owner knew and was ok with the fact he was on borrowed time...Not for me...

Chris

[AVickers]

A couple of years ago, I tried to get information on the Konrad High Performance drive and they indicated that it was no longer in production. Probably a matter of all the Alpha problems listed above.

If you want to go fast and it involves more than 350 horsepower, the first modification would be to find a Bravo (or a Volvo or King Cobra). Basically, the Alpha is a POS outboard foot on steriods. Even if the gears were bigger and the shafts adequately sized, the case distorts under load and gear contact geometry in the upper gearcase gets out of whack. Also, the way they shift...need I say more????

Or sell the boat and get what you should have gotten in the first place...

[harbormaster]

Woodsy thanks for the inputs, Keep em coming. I need info like the upper case walls being thin.

So we use bravo gearsets and strengthen/re-inforce the original upper cases.

Should not be too hard. Common sense says that a shorter shaft would take more power than the original longer shaft. less tendency to twist it off.

I am not looking for something to throw 500 horsepower at. I just want to raise my x dimension without redoing the transom.

Or how about an adapter to bolt a bravo to the Alpha helmet.

Woodsy, you did a alpha to Bravo changeout. What all was involved? Did you have to swap out everything from the back of the engine to the prop? Chris (CDMA) was going to write up something to post in the tech section but has not yet. Here is your chance to get his shirt.

OK any one ever hear anything about Conrad outdrives?

[Forrest]

Konrad Marine (http://www.konradmarine.com/) makes Alpha compatable replacement outdrives (as well as others) and has prototyed an Alpha SS clone called the Omega SS, which I doubt will ever go into production. In terms of high-performance, the Alpha design is dead due to relibility problems. You have to remember that the Alpha started life behind a Chevy II 120hp four-banger engine back in the the mid-1960s. Mercury just changed a gear-set here and bearing there through the years and kept adding power until it broke.

[Rootsy]

Do they not manufacture a standoff box with a raised X for an alpha? this seems like the most logical choice if you want to raise the alpha's X without cutting new holes.

This is a pretty interesting topic of discussion. No doubt about it the Alpha's aren't the toughest kid on the block. The Gen II may be taking a few roids but they aren't working all that well (except for the impeller!!!). A decade or so ago Merc finally found the alpha's limitation and that was behind the 330 hp 454 in heavier boats... the alpha's would pop like balloons.

As everyone has pretty much said, the weak points in the alpha are the upper gear set and the shaft. proceeding in depth a bit into the machine design aspect of things to decipher WHY...

The upper gears just don't have enough tooth contact for their strength to withstand the stresses, especially cyclic (fatique) or shock loading scenarios. Upper case distortion also severely stresses these gears. when rebuilding the HD gears are a wise investment.

90% of the time the shaft breaks above the lower pinion gear at the beginnng of the spline. logical since that is the point of greatest torsional shear stress as well as the location of stress risers due to spline cutting. It isn't so much the motor torque (unless it is just TOO dang much) that breaks the shaft but severe shock loading and unloading at that level of torque thruput. Constant loading always being preferable to cyclic, especially if there is any degree of amplitude. Playing into effect due to the cyclic loading is fatique life. Once the cyclic stresses increase to a certain amplitude the life expectancy of that shaft diminishes at a mathematical rate to a certain number of cycles before failure. hence the true limitation of power thruput.

Once the shaft goes, if you are lucky the pinion gear will stay put against the drive gears in the lower... but if it locks up or cants be prepared to replace the lower gearset also. We won't even discuss the mess in the bottom end as far as shifting... just remember... swift clunk is best and don't grind it into gear...

Now a shorter shaft will be stiffer and stronger over it's length and during cyclic and shock loading conditions will tend to withstand more of a torsional stress and have a longer fatique life. If the weak point truely is the point at which the spline begins then it is a moot point and shock loads will prevail. The only way to effectively relieve this is either trying to reduce stress risers (polishing, etc), increasing shaft diameter or material and heat or cryogenically treating revisions. A shaft diameter increase is not feasible. The impeller, impeller housing, seals, bearings, gearcase and upper gears as well as the lower pinion would all require revision.

I have heard claims of Alpha SS's with HD gearsets withstanding upward of 500 hp without issue. i havn't witnessed this firsthand but something has to be going on there for this to truly transpire. On our boats with light hull weights i can understand teh ability of the drive to last longer and handle more torque thruput unless you like going airborne and misjudge the throttle... not many of us have the experience or skill that throttlemen possess.

The amount of engineering, machining, manufacturing and modification that would go into shortening an existing lower unit or manufacturing a new one as a whole would honestly be cost prohibitive to most of us. There just isn't enough volume to tool for such a project in order to offset the capital that would be required to do this. i do believe It could be done on an individual basis if one wanted to do it and had adequate resources and capital at his or her disposal.

To think about it. without casting a whole new lower and using an existing housing. you would have to remove 2 inches or what not from the midsection between the water pump housing and needle bearings which support the shaft at the lower pinion. Can you actually remove 2+ inches in this area i do not know for sure without some blueprinting of a housing. You would then have to reweld, spell that TIG, the lower halves back together, both internally (water passages, exhaust passages and shaft housing...oh fun!) and externally without warpage in a precise nature which would require the use of a jig of some nature as well as a lot of time, skill, welding and metallurgy knowledge and lets not forget effort. You still run the risk of cracking due to hardening of the aluminum and porosity. it is amost a given that machining of some nature would be required because of mismatching somewhere and the need to maintain accurate shaft alignment in the bearings and gears. You run into the issue of blending the mismatched portions back together into a seamless smooth transition. A new shaft would have to be cut, heat treated and stress relieved. the shifting shaft would require shortening. Lastly, raising the C/L of the propshaft upward may very likely require closing the water intakes on the sides of the housing, adding a nosecone and low water pickups such as the existing SS's utilize.

If enough cannot be removed from the lower then it must be removed from the upper. though feasibly less difficult, still a pain in the butt.

Would manufacturing a new housing from a casting be a better way? first you have the pattern and core as well as engineering time to design and layout the housing. you still have EXTENSIVE machining operations to be performed afterward and standard mill tooling won't get things done waaay up inside of that gear housing. On top of this is materal cost as well as labor and any heat or solution treating of the aluminum required.

so in retrospect... if one is crazy... like well a few of us are.. then yeah we might see one of these come out of somewhere sooner or later... BUT for the money, time, headaches and heartaches required to do such a project it is WAAAY easier just move the Alpha upward an inch or two, find and purchase an SS and swap or go to a bravo and imco setup completely.

just my thoughts...

Root

[ToonaFish]

Constant loading always being preferable to cyclic, especially if there is any degree of amplitude. Playing into effect due to the cyclic loading is fatique life. Once the cyclic stresses increase to a certain amplitude the life expectancy of that shaft surviving diminishes at a mathematical rate to a certain number of cylces before failure. hence the true limitation of power thruput.
This explains my date Saturday...

Seriously, thanks JaRoot, I think I actually understood this and am now qualified for my doctorate in Mechanical Design!

[Forrest]

Root, I don't think that Mercury went to any lengthy ordeal to produce the Alpha SS. Essentially, they adapted a production high-performance outboard lower-unit to a special shortened upper gear-case housing which is the only new casting that was needed to build the SS. If you look an Alpha SS, the upper gear-case looks very rough in comparison to upper gear-case on a regular Alpha, or the lower gear-case on the SS. I would guess that the Alpha SS upper is sand cast and the regular Alpha and the Alpha SS's "outboard" lower unit is die-cast. Also, the Alpha SS's upper gear case is the most difficult - if not impossible part to find - new or used. All the other parts in the SS amount to machine shop work - shorter drive shaft/shift shaft, and maybe better gears.

[Doug L.]

Forrest, jamie
When I talked to Mercury Racing the guy there
said that the SS CLE is not the same as a OB CLE
I thought it was and I wonder if there is a bose
on the OB casting for a oil passage?
At one time I was thinking of using a Sportsman case they are faster and have better water pick-ups for my use. The OB CLE and the Sportsman have the same insides or so I have been told.
Forrest right about the upper it rougher and getting hard to find. Don't you have a lower case?
Doug

[Sam]

Doug, didn't you say that the shop that worked on your Alpha SS last winter had one for sale. If so, can you send me the name of the shop.

THX
Sam

[CDMA]

Sort of relevant...

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30139&highlight=shortening+bravo

[Forrest]

Chris, I talked to that guy, he's very ambitious and there is no reason why he won't make it work. He's in the right place for doing this project. There are lots of great machinist and specialty welders in the Norfolk area due to ship building industry and the Navy.

Doug, there were two Alpha SS lower units on had the water pickup located above the bullet, and the other had a low-water pickup drilled in to the nosecone. Yes the are some differences between the outboard lower unit and the Alpha SS lower unit one of which is the oil passage to the upper unit; however, if you take a look at the side of the Alpha SS lower unit you will see the words "oil vent" cast into the area near the top where the outboard has its oil vent plug, but the SS lower unit as not been drilled and tapped for an oil vent plug since it vents into the upper gear housing. Basically, I think it's the same casting as the OB lower unit with some minor changes.

And no, I sold my extra Alpha SS lower unit housing to a desperate person who put too much loading and unloading forces to his Alpha SS causing the end of the drive shaft to break, forcing the pinion gear through the side of the case. Alpha SS part are getting rare folks, don't beat on them! I think Towel Boy (mardups) has an Alpha SS lower unit only for sale. He wanted to build a complete outdrive but he couldn't find the upper gear housing.

[Gary S.]

I really can't see any problems welding the cases,,,, I do aluminum welds on cold boxes that operate at -300 degrees F and well over 700 PSI and they are made from all kinds of weird alloys,,,if anyone wants to try it,,,,as I've said before,,,,I can weld it. Welding is like this,,,,when your really good at it you want a challenge,,,, if you aren't then it's a mysterious art that you just can't see how it works. That being said,,,,, I'll do the welding,,,,, now all we need is someone to cut the shaft and I would certainly cyrogenicly treat them, I use the process on gun barrels and cutting tools,,,,it works no doubt !! and I think it's only about 50 or 75 buck's.

[CDMA]

Cliff could you do the shaft??? I got a Bravo lower and I am twisted enough to try it...

Chris