Drive/Engine combo for my 22

[PaulO]

Okay,
7 weeks till spring and I have a 22 classic that needs a gas tank, power and drive. Most likely will go for a BBC/Bravo1 combo but, I wanted to get some opinions. Anyone have any idea how well a blackhawk would work on one of these non-rockered hulls? How about a DPX or Bravo3? Anyone want to opine on the weight of the deck? I don't know anyone that's popped a 22 deck yet. The boat will be mostly for family usage so, anything too radical is out for now.
Thanks,
PaulO

[Ranman]

I'd go with either a 502/Bravo One or a 496MAG HO/Bravo One. The 496 is a far superior package, but will obviously come at a higher price. Whatever you do, do not go with a small block or Alpha drive.

From what I understand, the Bravo 3 is not geared towards performance applications. The counter rotating props are there to help cruisers get on plane. Also I think drive is longer so it can swing a bigger dia prop and thus sits deeper in the water. This is to help the cruisers get on plane.

If you ever want to sell it easily and get some money back, avoid the Volvo setup. If you don't care about absolute performance, resale ease or amount, look into the Volvo setup.

CDMA should be able to help you on the deck removal thing as I think he popped his 22 apart.

[Kent Perroux]

Don't completely count out the Volvo DPX. That is a sweet package with excellent handling, efficiency and includes the external ram steering.

I agree the Bravo will make it easier to sell to a performance oriented person.

Cigarette put the Bravo 3 on the re-introduction of their 20. IMHO I think the Bravo 3 is more for a large cruiser.

[mattyboy]

Well I can't believe it but I have to agree with Randy on the 496/Bravo setup as the prime choice for your setup.

the duo prop setups will help cure hunting at idle speeds, and make it easier to dock,they also are more fuel effiecient,plane quickier.
but will be slower than a single prop @ wot
( not the blackhawk)
the Blackhawk will need an X dimension change cause it is a surface piercing drive.
very fast, but might be hard to find, and props are big $$$$, the lack of the rocker might be cause for concern,if you're gonna invest $$$$ into it you don't want to find out it is unstable or unsafe at speed??? I believe all the black hawk boats have rockers from the factory.

If you don't care about the loss of 3-5 mph and want near bullet proof operation go VOLVO

sorry Randy it just blurted out wink :D

good luck Paul hope to see ya on the water soon

Matt

[Tony]

Randy Oakleaf (in lieu of TP) & Matty'Flyer'boy,

Specifically, what makes the 496 Mag HO/Bravo1 more desirable than the 502/Bravo1? Are they similar in stock hp and torque curve numbers? Is one more reliable than the other? Both designed for 87 octane?

RANDOM THOUGHTS:

If $ were not a factor, is the new HP525 EFI, with 'Smartcraft', and an XZ or XR drive considered "overkill" for a 22 classic?
What is the difference and suggested applications between these two drives? Do they have any hole shot or mid-range torque or are they strictly top end?
What about the new Bravo1 XR Sport Master drive with the ITS (Integrated Transom System)? It is offered in a standard length and short gearcase...is this to raise the famous X Dimension? Just out of curiosity, anybody know the suggested retail prices of these goodies?

Roadkill Todd Somerville, HP500 Ted, (and others?) are topping 500 hp in classic 22's, are all their powerplants supercharged? X-dimensions raised? I know they all have sophisticated steering systems and great drivers :D , but in general how does a 22 classic handle 80+ mph?

[roadtrip se]

Agree with everything said here so far.

You want a blackhawk setup? Buy one complete. Rocker is just one of the unique things about this boat. Higher X-dimension, weight distribution with the gas tank placement, k-planes, and many other set up tricks. Buy one if you want one!

496HO is a better package than the 502. Internal cooling, ECM, and many other things makes for a more consistent setup with more mid range torque and a couple of miles per hour on the top end. I did love my 502.

525 EFI package is awesome, especially with the ITS and sport master, but it is 41,000 retail! Big ouch. This will be my next package, when there are a few more out on the market and the prices come down.

Of course, a 500 efi or carb will really wake up that package! They are available at the same prices as a new 496 or 502. Incredible torque and high end at low to mid-80s! Of course you get hydraulic steering, Imco shorties, and props to mess with, but isn't that part of the fun? A 22 is a handful at 80+, but not for a sober driver with a little sanity!

Good luck!

"Roadkill"

"more power scotty..."

[Ranman]

Tony, What you are suggesting regarding The Merc Racing Motors would be great, but the price for the blue motors is steep.


anything too radical is out for now. My Suggestions were based on the above statement.

As far as the 496 Vs. 502, the 502 pales in comparison regarding technology. Here are some benefits of the 496 over the 502:

From MercuryMarine.com
http://www.mercurymarine.com/496_mag_high_output_sd_-_425_hp

Mercury®-exclusive PCM 555 processor optimizes fuel mixture, knock control and ignition timing independently for each cylinder, resulting in improved, precise performance. PCM 555 also enables the connection of SmartCraft™ components.

Distributorless ignition system improves timing accuracy and eliminates mechanical timing adjustments.

The SmartCraft Digital Throttle and Shift (DTS) system brings digital precision to engine throttle and shift.

Engine Guardian™ proactively monitors and protects your engine from the damaging effects of low oil pressure, high engine temperature, engine over-speed or low cooling water pressure.

The Engine Guardian system not only detects and alerts you of an engine problem, it automatically reduces power to a safe level that allows you to continue operating.

MerCruiser® exhaust system is 65 percent lighter on the 496 MAG than the previous big block's cast-iron components, which translates to increased performance without the weight.

Dry-joint technology reduces the potential for water leakage in exhaust components and improves corrosion resistance in the exhaust system.

MerCruiser closed-cooling system uses long-life coolant lasting up to five years for reduced maintenance. The more efficient cooling made possible by this system results in more accurate electronic engine management and a more aggressive ignition spark for efficient combustion and increased power.

[Ranman]

Tony, What you are suggesting regarding The Merc Racing Motors would be great, but the price for the blue motors is steep.


anything too radical is out for now. My Suggestions were based on the above statement.

As far as the 496 Vs. 502, the 502 pales in comparison regarding technology. Here are some benefits of the 496 over the 502:

From MercuryMarine.com
http://www.mercurymarine.com/496_mag_high_output_sd_-_425_hp

Mercury®-exclusive PCM 555 processor optimizes fuel mixture, knock control and ignition timing independently for each cylinder, resulting in improved, precise performance. PCM 555 also enables the connection of SmartCraft™ components.

Distributorless ignition system improves timing accuracy and eliminates mechanical timing adjustments.

The SmartCraft Digital Throttle and Shift (DTS) system brings digital precision to engine throttle and shift.

Engine Guardian™ proactively monitors and protects your engine from the damaging effects of low oil pressure, high engine temperature, engine over-speed or low cooling water pressure.

The Engine Guardian system not only detects and alerts you of an engine problem, it automatically reduces power to a safe level that allows you to continue operating.

MerCruiser® exhaust system is 65 percent lighter on the 496 MAG than the previous big block's cast-iron components, which translates to increased performance without the weight.

Dry-joint technology reduces the potential for water leakage in exhaust components and improves corrosion resistance in the exhaust system.

MerCruiser closed-cooling system uses long-life coolant lasting up to five years for reduced maintenance. The more efficient cooling made possible by this system results in more accurate electronic engine management and a more aggressive ignition spark for efficient combustion and increased power.

[tamburello]

Madpoodle recently posted that Merc will throw in their Integrated Transom System for free when you purchase an 575 SCI/Bravo XR package.

Sure you'll have to sell a kidney, take out a second morgage, rob a few convenience stores, and cut a hole in the engine hatch for the blower to stick its head out of but you'll be movin' quick.

On a serious note I'd go with a 496 HO just like the wiser gentlemen before me have posted. You can always throw a procharger on later for some added fun. Procharger (http://www.procharger.com/marine/M_496.shtml)

[Woodsy]

Paul,

You didn't say what your budget was, or how old, how much work you have into your 22 Classic hull. Has the transom been redone, or does it have the standard cutout. What was in the boat originally?

I have a 97 22 Classic with a 454MAG (385hp) and a BlackHawk drive, non-rocker hull. I don't have thru hull exhaust either. Its not propped right, I have a set of 29P on there now, and my engine rpm is only 4400 unless I over trim the drive. I need to try out a set of 27P props to get my rpm up where it should be. That should get my speed up too. I turn 71mph gps, in normal water. In calm flat water, because the drive is set to deep and I can't air out the hull I slow down considerably to about 65mph or so. In rough water, I am faster, 73gps because I can get the hull aired out. My boat is just as fast as the new 496HO (425hp) Bravo setup, and with the right props I might be a touch faster. This is with the drive set too deep, if I got the drive up a couple of inches, I would see an additional 3-4mph easy.

The downside of the BlackHawk drive is props are getting scarce, though the rumour mill at Mercury Racing is that they might cast some more if the demand is there. The BlackHawk case & midshaft are the ONLY unique internal pieces on the this drive. The upper is all Bravo 1, and will accept the new XZ/XR gearsets, and the lower is Bravo 3.

As far as the Blackhawk edition 22 Classics go, they are a really cool boat, but you need to know what you are buying. The factory put way too much rocker in the hull, to help air out the hull, and the boat porpoises like a SOB until you get to WOT. Check out WBateman's Avatar. Instead of redoing the mold, that would have been huge $$$, the factory added big K-Planes, and moved the fuel tank forward in these boats to help move the CG and lower the nose in an attempt to minimize the porpoising. If I were to buy an original Blackhawk edition, I would have the bottom of the hull reworked to remove some, not all, of the rocker. Ii would also add an extension box to put the props a little further behind the boat and into cleaner water. This will also help to minimize the porpoising, and increase the speed.

Back to the original question, If I had a blank canvas of a boat, I would look into a 502/Bravo setup, IMCO 2" shortie, and external steering. This is probably the most cost effective way to get into the mid 70's, and have turn key reliability. You could also substitute a used HP500 for the 502. The money you would save over the 496HO setup would get you into external hydraulic steering, and a nice set of K-planes. BBC parts are cheap and plentiful. Future upgrades could be aluminum heads, better exhaust, supercharger etc.

If you got a sweet deal on it, a Volvo DPX is an AWESOME setup, and pretty much bulletproof. Not a bad way to go at all.

Woodsy Von Donzi :D :D

[PaulO]

The boat is an '83 and has had the transom re-done for a Bravo. Originally, it was a TRS boat. The boat is clean but not mint and I intend to keep it that way and use it as a knock-around boat. I will be looking at all options but will probably look for a used engine/drive combo. I would be much happier with a real nice cruise speed than overall top end and was wondering if the Bravo3 or the DPX would supply an advantage there. Thanks for all the responses.
PaulO

[Ranman]

PAulO,

Based on what you're saying I'd look around for a good used 502/Bravo setup. I guess a 454MAG would work too, but the 502 is more desirable. Either of those should give you what you would expect out of a 22 Classic without breaking the bank. I still don't think the Bravo 3 or Volvo route would be a good choice. I say stick with the tried and true. Good luck with your project.

[Bad-Tat]

Paul,
I would do the Roadtrip/HP500 shorty route. They have done a very nice job with the std hull. As to my avitar, that was taken the second time I drove the boat. As Woodsy says it will get the bow waaaay up there! It will also try and pass the stern under the bow if you don't back out of the throttle fast! Ask Roadtrip about that feeling! Hard to drive but sure gets comments with those mean props on the back!!!

[HP 600SC]

I think a Mercury HP600 SC and an XR drive with the Imco shorty would be a great combo!

What kind of idiot would really do that?? :D

[CDMA]

Ted

But when do we get to see it....

:) :)

Say when....

Paul,

Give me a call after 9 if you can..

Chris

[riverrat]

Paul, has Ted (HP500) not offered up his setup to you? :D :D

I'm sure there's a bigger motor going in that boat this yr.
the rat.. eek!

[Donzi Dreaming]

Ted,

Will that be in the 22 or the Cigarette. How is the Cig? How is the Inovation 600 coming along? Updates would be nice or do I have to start looking for links again on other boards?

John

[BigGrizzly]

PaulO, nice to see you back!!! I disagree with the 496 package totally. It is weak inretnally, small valves rods and tinie ports. In a boat that old you won't recupe your investmant. Where you areI would go with a mild 502, closed cooling system and a bravo i drive. Thr deeper drive is a tad slower but is in the water longer and does handle the rough stuff better. The Imco will give you 3->6 mph and is cheeper than the Blackhawk and can be had with the heavy internals and XR output shaft, which makes it stronger than the blackhawk by at least 100 HP. Now to throw in a wrinkle a friend of mine who contracts for Merc says that Merc guys think the Volvo SX is a superior drive and are a little worried. Youve been here before the 502 bravo package is the smartest move. By all means use a closed cooling system, it will end a lot of hassels. As you already know I have one on my Procharged 502 with a TRS and do above 80 MPH and no overheating problems.

[ITTLFLI]

Chris Reindl Reindl Power Boats has some used Volvo DPX's for sale. Call him, he is a great guy to work with. Maybe he will give you a discount on a boat lease also:D
513-706-3199
Reindlpowerboats@aol.com

[MattM]

Everybody's talking about new Merc factory setups. Big $$. If I had to do it again I'd repeat what I did 10 years ago and find a good used Bravo and a knowledgable local shop to build a good 500 hp 454, and dress it up w/ shiny parts and Stellings or other tube headers for a great sound for about half the price.

[DON N.]

BRAVO 1 + 454 .