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View Full Version : HELP, need technical advice tonight PLEASE



Bryan Tuvell
06-06-2001, 05:10 PM
OK, here is the scoop from the new outdrive test run (22zx 350 mag/Alpha sec gen), first let me say, it is new from Merc, built 4/25/01 and tested the next day according to stickers on the unit, runs fine on ears in the lot.

So, we launched, I kept the RPM up/down, non constant for 1/2 hour, 45 minutes, between no wake and 3500 RPM, trying to break her in right (thank you Griz for the tip)...

So, after 45 minutes, after a short no wake zone at 1000 RPM she dies. I turn her off and sit, she hesitates to start (the first time I tried no beep beep), so I check the gauges, temp 180 degrees just off the switch, motor is off. I wait, then the beep beep and we run for a few minutes, same thing.... we wait....she fires right up, instantly like I am acustom too, I bring her on plane, temp falls to 150 NOW, then slowly rises to 180 and the engine shuts herself off. Again, wait ten minutes, drive a 1/2 mile, same thing, eventually I get to the dock.....
Like I said the first 30 minutes she was like the day I bought her.... I trust my Merc guy and will be waiting for him to come in at 8:30am tomorrow ( I hope he isn't hung over on the free 12 pack appreciation gift I gave him...)
I am looking for thoughts from you experienced motor/drive guys, she is a 1999, 350 mag, 199 hours on her. I did some reading and kind of understand how the water gets to the engine for cooling from the NEW drive.... Or maybe a thermostat....
WHAT SHOULD I EXPECT THE MECHANIC TO DO TO TROUBLE SHOOT????
It is a long drive so I want to be somewhat educated. Thanks in advance you guys.....
Bryan

[This message has been edited by Bryan Tuvell (edited 06-06-2001).]

RickR
06-06-2001, 06:12 PM
Bryan
Use the rabbit ears and hose and see what happens.

I'd let the mechanic have a look but to check yourself, install a clear hose to the intake hose near the thermostat housing. When she's in the water there should be little or no bubbles while the engine is running.Check at idle and on plane.

Also;
There is a tube between the upper and lower gear case that has to be lined up during assembly.

Check the hose going from the gimball assembly to the transom mount, sometimes it gets kinked.

There is also a o-ring between the drive and the gimball for the water that might not be lined up correctly.

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RICKR
mailto:riggerb@aol.comriggerb@aol.com</A>

marcdups
06-06-2001, 06:50 PM
bryan, good day, it looks like rick has gotten you on the right track, did the drive come in complete? from merc, with the beeping I would check mt gear oil tank also, on new drives they tend to use up some oil at first to fill all the voids in the drive unit, and as rick mentioned the O ring between the drive and transom assy mat have shifted during installation, should show up on a hose, did you relace the water hose to engine also? I do not know what happened to your old drive, but here is a hint to all you guys, when replacing a lower unit assy, complete or not, order a remanufactured one, merc does not reman outdrives but the ones that do not pass quality control are re shimmed and sold as remans, same warranty and parts, they actually sill have the new part # on the housing but not the box, and obviously cheaper!!. Bryan, is your mechanic a merc dealer??
marc

marcdups
06-06-2001, 06:53 PM
bryan, good day, it looks like rick has gotten you on the right track, did the drive come in complete? from merc, with the beeping I would check mt gear oil tank also, on new drives they tend to use up some oil at first to fill all the voids in the drive unit, and as rick mentioned the O ring between the drive and transom assy mat have shifted during installation, should show up on a hose, did you relace the water hose to engine also? I do not know what happened to your old drive, but here is a hint to all you guys, when replacing a lower unit assy, complete or not, order a remanufactured one, merc does not reman outdrives but the ones that do not pass quality control are re shimmed and sold as remans, same warranty and parts, they actually sill have the new part # on the housing but not the box, and obviously cheaper!!. Bryan, is your mechanic a merc dealer??
marc

Bryan Tuvell
06-06-2001, 07:17 PM
Yep, he is a Certified Merc guy. The drive was a complete replacement, top and bottom etc.... all he had to do was bolt it up, make a few adjustments etc...

the mechanic said she was fine on ears, in my eyes it never heated to operating temp.

I will be on the lot when they open, they are expecting me, I was just curious as to what you guys thought. As long is she is under warranty I won't touch it...

Thanks, Bryan

marcdups
06-06-2001, 07:59 PM
good luck, let's us know what they find!!
Marc

mehaynes
06-06-2001, 08:19 PM
Might be the seawater pump. A hose will force the water through the system while the pump will draw it.

mark

boldts
06-06-2001, 08:48 PM
Just curious, but why are you all looking at a possible water blockage. Isn't 180 degrees the correct operating temp.? I would be more concerned about the cooling water flow if the engine temp. was rising up over 220 degrees. Is there a temp. sensor on the engine that might be malfunctioning and shutting the engine off even though it's not over heating? Is there a computer controlling this engine? I guess I'm thinking away from the cooling aspect because the engine runs fine when it is run with water ears on it. If it cools with these, the drive being in actual water I would think would be even better. Just wondering.

Scott Boldt

Donzitester
06-06-2001, 09:11 PM
Check the hose clamp where the hose comes
thru, at the top of the gimble inside the transom. If that is loose it will suck air and the temp guage will go up and down
like crazy. Dont think the Alphas have
Sea water pumps??

[This message has been edited by Donzitester (edited 06-06-2001).]

Bryan Tuvell
06-06-2001, 09:38 PM
Scott B, great points, yes I operate close to 180 normally.

DONZITESTER, is there a shut down mode etc for my engine under certain circumstances? I reread my book, no mention of one.... SOMETHING is causing the engine to shut down when hot, manifolds were normal hand temp, oil filter was hot!!!!

There at the front of the motor where there is 4 hoses (says ALPHA in the center) there is 2 sensors/sending units, one is temp for sure, single wire, the other is 3 or 4 wires)... my boat friend (motor guy) wanted to disconnect the second sending device but I chose not to.

There is definately something telling her, 180, shut off... I spoke with Frank C tonight and he used the number 220 F for his auto shut down.... Man I hope this is an easy fix....

I am still unsure what ol Ricky will check first, but he seems to be a seasoned merc guy.... well off to bed.... God bless our boat mommas, mine helped sooth my frustration.... http://www.donzi.net/ubb/smile.gif http://www.donzi.net/ubb/smile.gif http://www.donzi.net/ubb/smile.gif
so I am sleepy!
Thanks
Bryan

[This message has been edited by Bryan Tuvell (edited 06-06-2001).]

vagrant
06-06-2001, 10:27 PM
HEY bryan
sorry to here you are having problems believe me i have had my share so i give you my 2 cents worth i know my is older and this may not apply but we have alphas so here goes this is the way mine is set up the water pump is in the lower unit if it sucks any kinda of air it will run hot after that there is a hose behind the gimble that take the water from the drive to the motor next you can pull the water hose off going to the thermo stat housing and see what kinda of water outlet you are getting volume wise and flow then next is your thermostat itself and thats pretty much it oh one other thing the problem we found on mine was the theromstat housing was so coroed it wasnt allowing flow to the motor hope this helps some and good luck let me know if i can help after putting two engines in the beast of mine i have had my share of problems good luck
david
vagrants twins
lake norman nc

Bryan Tuvell
06-06-2001, 10:36 PM
David, thanks for the wisdom and encouragemet. In my mind since the only change to the boat was the drive that is where the problem is. I got a bunch of great data from this thread and feel good about the trip to see ol Ricky tomorrow.

The net has been a great resource during all this.
We will hook up soon. I spoke with Frank C. tonight, we are in on the AC gig as long as the boat is OK.
Bryan

[This message has been edited by Bryan Tuvell (edited 06-06-2001).]

STUNG_AGAIN
06-07-2001, 12:02 AM
Vagrant, I believe the newer 350 alpha's have the engine mounted raw water pumps now vice the outdrive, I know my 502 does. And yes the ECM module will shut down the motor when it over heats as a safety margin. The big blocks like mine will normally shut down around 220ish. My normal running temp is 160. Unlike a car boats run cooler than autmobiles. My thermostat "begins" to open at 142 and is completely open at 160. Auto's normally are 160-180 respectively.

Bryan I suspect one of two things; bad thermostat that may have been going when the outdrive croaked (vagrant's right about the pull the hose trick); or, the raw water feed line from the outdrive somehow got gooned during the install. One thing can be sure with boat problems, if it ain't clanging or making other metal to metal sounds it's usually some dumb simple solution. The pain comes in locating it... http://www.donzi.net/ubb/cool.gif

OBTW, Stung Again is still running great

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"...we sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those that would harm us..."

STUNG_AGAIN
06-07-2001, 12:05 AM
I forgot to add that now you're experiencing the true joys of boat ownership. It's a marriage; "for better or for worse"... http://www.donzi.net/ubb/cool.gif

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"...we sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those that would harm us..."

Bryan Tuvell
06-07-2001, 10:11 AM
UPDATE, the mechanic pulled the drive, O ring and hose was fine. Pulled thermostat and replaced it. Ran boat on hose until thermostat opened, she dropper from 170 to about 165 (160 thermostat). He was concerned that she shut off yesterday with no alarm! He said if this doesn't help he would come in tomorrow (his day off) and change the front engine pump, he did add that they normally leak when they are shot. Mine is not leaking.
He said the sensor is a cheap option I can do. He was out of stock off them or he would have gave me one.

So we splash again this afteroon for a test run.
Thanks you guys for the info, I felt prepared this a.m. when I arrived.
Bryan

Forrest
06-07-2001, 11:16 AM
I don't know what Merc supplies from the factory these days in the way of thermostats, but I would think that anything above 142-degrees is just too warm for a raw-water cooled engine running in salt water. The warmer it runs, the quicker the corrosion will build up in the iron water jackets. This happens for two reasons. 1) Salt starts to separate or precipitate from sea water at higher temperatures, especially over 160- to 170-degrees, and 2) heat accelerates corrosion.
Remember, the three factors for corrosion are, an electrolyte (salt water is a great electrolyte - the more salt the better the electrolyte), oxygen, and heat. Reduce any of these factors, an you will reduce the rate of corrosion.

Make it last!

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Forrest

[This message has been edited by Forrest (edited 06-07-2001).]

Gearhead99
06-07-2001, 08:36 PM
Forrest,

You also forgot that "Rust never sleeps".

Bryan Tuvell
06-07-2001, 08:53 PM
Good points, but we are all stuck with our boating enviroment.
FORREST, I posted a new thread that told the test drive story and was specific on temps. 502 books says 142, 350 mag 160, I wonder why the difference in thermostats.
Thanks
Bryan

Frank Civitano
06-07-2001, 09:03 PM
Bryan. The 502 generates more heat then the 350 so lower the thermastat down. I have no thermastat in my 454 and I still run 135 Due to the heat of the procharger. The greater the Compression the higher the temp will climb. How is your boat doing did they find the problem yet?

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Frank Civitano

avk
06-07-2001, 10:28 PM
I know this might be a bit off the mark but my new at that time (1999) C18 with efi had a simular problem. What it turned out to be was a switch in the shift/throttle control. The efi motors have a switch that kills the motor as you shift from forward to neutral. This switch was loose and it caused the motor to run fine then as I gave it throttle it would hesitate big time and then regain speed or just cough and sputter, felt like there was fuel starvation. This all occured in the first couple of hours on the new boat. The mechanic knew the problem and fixed it in 15 minutes! Hope yours was as easy as mine to fix.
Alan