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Looped
06-05-2001, 12:51 PM
I still do not get it. How can they sell something so close to the 2+3 Classic and get away with it? Did I miss something along the way?

http://www.pythonboats.com/images/Vyper_Photo.jpg

Craig

Jamesbon
06-05-2001, 01:25 PM
Didn't they pull their mold from one of "our" boats?

Len
06-05-2001, 03:19 PM
Yes, they did. They are wonderful boats. Exactly the same as you have, that is why. There are no trademarks, patents or other cumbersome hurdles in the way of someone doing this and there is NEVER any reference to the word "DONZI"... Not even a reference to "a Donzi copy". Power is different, anyone can buy a motor from OMC or MERC, anyone can buy a leg, and interior is of different origin as is instrumentation. Colours are not identical. Very similar to buying an AC Cobra kit, plugging the body and coming up with your own name and driveline. It's been done many times. Moulds, patents and trademarks are important when you wish to continue using the nameplate or reference. I can't tell you HOW MANY people/companies here make Boston Whaler copies for offshore. Don't sell it as a "DONZI" or a "DONZI copy", only now call it a "PYTHON Viper". Different kettle of fish. We have a few styles of Inflatables here that use the X-18 hull with pontoon adapters carved into the sheer. The Deep-Vee was never trademarked or patented by Ray Hunt. It could have been, but he apparently had no interest in this and only strived to meet the needs of clients and design. Recently I posted a link to an acquaintance in Allan Brown's career (HARRY SCHOELL,..sp) sueing over the "stepped hull" design. I believe Regal is at the forefront of this one. Steve Stepp was not the inventor of this concept either as it was around and used with great success on race-boats in the EARLY 1900's. (early teens) The copying is possible and done all the time. Countries and borders affect all this as well. I think just yesterday Madpoodle talked about the "Roughwater 18" a copied 18' (OB) that scares bass fishers...

[This message has been edited by Len (edited 06-05-2001).]

BigGrizzly
06-05-2001, 03:47 PM
There was a lawsuit aginst Python, don't know how it came out. Python wanted to help me and jelcoat my Corsican,they wanted it for two months. I told them no dice I know what they are up to.
My Corsican is called the Mongoose- because it eats Vipers(not all but most of them). I,m known as THE BLUE DONZI. Their boat is a nice looking unir.

Randy

Looped
06-05-2001, 09:29 PM
Scott,
You don't mean HiLiner do you? "(was originally called Hi Miler)" I have seen a couple of adds in the boattraderonline with HiLiners stating that they are a Donzi look-a-like. A freind of mine has a 16' outboard HiLiner that was made back in the 50's I think. Thoughs damn wooden boats ride so hard I messed my neck up on it about 8 years ago and it still acts up at times.

Craig

olredalert
06-06-2001, 10:31 AM
Hey MP,
I remember those things(Dolphins).Wasnt the factory down south of Miami on 1,before Key Largo?Never looked at them too close,but they had good lines if I recall.Seems I remember a few down at Ocean Reef too.Have you been able to get up to see that boat on boat trader?Ive got a couple of cars for sale and might be able to handle it soon!..........just........ol red!

Tselby
06-06-2001, 02:52 PM
Sutphen, who has been around for years, also makes a boat that looks just like an 18 2+3 classic.

Tselby
06-07-2001, 08:11 AM
Four Winns, makes or use to make a takeoff on the Donzi classic also, they called theirs the Unlimited U-17 and Unlimited U-19.
Both have Volvo Penta outdrives. I belive their SX drives with Chevy motors.

Len
06-07-2001, 08:38 AM
Tselby, the u-17 and 19 look very close but there is no hook in the hull and they wrapped the sheer around into the transom on a radius.

MattM
06-07-2001, 09:01 AM
I read in a couple articles several years ago that the Four Winns boats were developed at Donzi during the OMC years as a replacement for the Classics. Then when OMC sold Donzi they kept the molds laying around and Four Winns picked them up a few years later. I'm sure glad they weren't able to complete their original diabolical plan!

Ranman
06-07-2001, 10:10 AM
The Four Winns "U" boats I saw a few years back had Volvo Drives with Ford engines (looked just like a 5.0L Mustang motor). I heard that Hot Boat tested them and they got horrible reviews. I think Hot Boat even called them "dangerous". Anybody remember the arcticle?

Len
06-07-2001, 10:32 AM
would love to find the article. We have a new one here in town ('99) originally 23,000.00 Can$ now available for $8900.00 Can$. The dealer has EVERYTHING/BOAT/PRODUCT that OMC had to offer in their portfolio. These things have been sitting here forever.

Looped
06-07-2001, 10:45 AM
On another car site that I go on someone just recently posted this on about his 96 U19:

Watching through the posts here I have been impressed with everyone's ability to solve problems, so here's a problem...

I have a '96 (bought new in '97) Four Winns Unlimited 19' boat. It has been very, very good about everything. It's hard to find a new boat for under 20k that will run 70 mph. It's got a good old 5.0 in it with Corsa exhaust and Volvo Penta outdrive.

The other day, a terrible thing happened. The bolt that holds the engine mount down came off and the engine jumped off of the post and came back down. This downward motion caused the engine part of the mount to hit the post and break the mount off of the block. No big deal. I bought an extended policy that covers this kind of stuff.

Well, the nice people at the extended warranty company have denied the claim. The paperwork says that they cover internally lubricated parts. Also, in the next paragraph, the warranty specifically, by name, covers the engine mounts and any internally lubed parts that go with one if it fails. Sounds good, right? Well, they said nope, turn the thing over and read the fine print. We don't cover problems caused by loose nuts and bolts. What???? This is a $4000 claim that they are trying to weasel out of with that?

What would the best course of action be? I want the boat fixed on their nickel. They don't even want to pay the shop for the exploratory work that has been done up until now. There's a 'mandatory' arbitration clause that says that I will go to Ohio or Idaho or somewhere far away to arbitrate the claim if I want. I'm in Texas, and I don't think that those hold much water around here, but I'm not sure.

Nice boat huh http://www.donzi.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif
Craig

Len
06-08-2001, 09:09 AM
Last night, taking my daughter to swimming classes, I noticed an ugly boat (deck and lines) with a wonderfull hull. I pulled up to the light. Got outta my van and ran over and asked this (older) man what kind of boat it was. Clearly to me it was a Classic Hull, (16)even had decals similar to Lions and Dolphins except with references to the manufacturer, "Glas-ply". I asked him what kind of boat it was and he said it was an early '70's Glas-ply, a plugged "Donzi??? or something hull" with a different deck. He has had it since new and uses it mostly on a lake up the mountain from here. Had Ford and Volvo to boot! Didn't have my camera with me for the first time in ages. Wanted to post a pic for you guys,...next time.

There is no end to this,...is there?

Blew-by-you knows a bit about these things if I recall.
http://www.donzi.net/ubb/smile.gif

EricG
06-08-2001, 10:41 AM
That's pretty crappy about the Four Winns guy's claim - but, those U-boats must have had better hull design's than the Donzis, because 70 with a 5.0 is really impressive!! http://www.donzi.net/ubb/wink.gif

EG

Formula Jr
06-08-2001, 11:32 AM
Tahiti also got in to the small deep vee game in 74. And made a few 17 look-a-likes. Trying to trace that boat down. But the strangest story came from an older park ranger I meet on my trip. He came over to look at the Formula and swore his army buddy and him built a boat identical to mine out of wood from a kit that was sold in the mid 60's.

Looped
06-08-2001, 09:02 PM
EricG,
Needless to say, I stayed out of that posting. Didn't wanna go there.

Craig

Blewbyu
06-09-2001, 01:48 PM
Yep,yep,yep,-been there.Bought a 78 Glasply
18 footer in the early 80's.It had a Donzi knockoff hull with a really ugly deck,and was BMW powered (220 hp 3.5 litre inline 6,BMW outdrive).I went to the local Donzi dealer and robbed the deck crown and other measurements-went home and chainsawed the deck off the Glasply.Spent the whole winter building my own Donzi.The finished product really was convincing-aside from the propulsion package.It ran 61mph @ 6000 rpm,and would run WOT all day on very little gas-and neck and neck with the real Donzis of the day.The boat is still around-but the deck mods are beginning to deteriorate (plywood under West Systems).The current owner can't afford to fix.Neither of the last two owners has ever done any repairs on the engine/outdrive,and it still runs 61mph.

JimG205
06-09-2001, 04:02 PM
Regarding the U-17 & U-19 Four Winns,I consulted a dealer last spring and was told he hadn't come across any used ones but did sell a few.Was told Four Winns had purchased the rights to make the boats for two model year runs from Donzi on the hull mold only!Tried calling Four Winns to get an answer and got alot of circle talk.Rumors,and thats all I can say,has it the boats are unstable and there were some product liability issues in the early delivery stages that caused a halt and a closed lip on the boats!Does anyone know the real story?????Would love to know. Jim

Desert Fox
06-09-2001, 08:28 PM
As I was saying, let's be objective. Aronow had his own knock off of sorts in the sweet 16. ( after you settle down,let me explain: according to "Thunerboat Row":
After Aronow sold the design and mold for the 27 foot Formula to Marlin Boatworks of N.C. ( mid 1964) it was only two months later when he sold the Formula 23. The Buyer: Thunderbird Boats, a subsidary of Merrick Lewis Alliance Marchine Company of Ohiho. Dick Genth was running the company at the time and realized the profit potential of the 23 Formula if mass produced. During the negotiations, Formula Jr. was discussed, Jim wynne's newest design ( 17' single seat with wrap around seating) Genth wanted the Formula Jr. in the sale, Aronow was reluctant. It is said that Aronow reluctantly consented to the sale and is quoted as saying: " I've just got a funny feeling about the lettle boat. I really didn't want to let her go..." It is also a fact that Genth "didn't have the time or the space to build the 17 Jr."
Aronow "quickly jumped" when he saw that Thunderbird was bogged down with orders for the 23' and could not get the 17' off the ground into full production. Aronow still had the wooden plug for the 17' Jr., making it possible to tool (knock off?) another 17 foot mold from the plug. He blocked about eight inches off the transom... the Sweet 16 arrived.

A KNOCK OFF SINCE THE JR. WAS ALREADY SOLD???

PUTTING EMOTION ASIDE, ONE MUST FIRST DISTINGUISH BETWEEN (1) PROTECTED DESIGN (2) SALE OF A MOLD(3)SALE OF A DESIGN (4) UNFAIR COMPETITION (5) NON-PROTECTED DESIGNS (6) TREDENAME/TRADE MARK PROTECTION (6) SALE OF RIGHTS (7) RESTRICTIVE COVENANTS
AH.. ITS MORE FUN TO HAVE AN EMOTIONAL DISCUSSION THAN GET INTO LEGAL MUMBO JUMBO..

".....THEY'RE ALL KNOCKING OFF DONZI.... EXCEPT THE SWEET 16 (FORMULA JR.) WHICH WAS KNOCKED OFF BY NON OTHER THAN DONZI.

Desert Fox
06-09-2001, 08:33 PM
As I was saying, let's be objective. Aronow had his own knock off of sorts in the sweet 16. ( after you settle down,let me explain: according to "Thunerboat Row":
After Aronow sold the design and mold for the 27 foot Formula to Marlin Boatworks of N.C. ( mid 1964) it was only two months later when he sold the Formula 23. The Buyer: Thunderbird Boats, a subsidary of Merrick Lewis Alliance Marchine Company of Ohiho. Dick Genth was running the company at the time and realized the profit potential of the 23 Formula if mass produced. During the negotiations, Formula Jr. was discussed, Jim wynne's newest design ( 17' single seat with wrap around seating) Genth wanted the Formula Jr. in the sale, Aronow was reluctant. It is said that Aronow reluctantly consented to the sale and is quoted as saying: " I've just got a funny feeling about the lettle boat. I really didn't want to let her go..." It is also a fact that Genth "didn't have the time or the space to build the 17 Jr."
Aronow "quickly jumped" when he saw that Thunderbird was bogged down with orders for the 23' and could not get the 17' off the ground into full production. Aronow still had the wooden plug for the 17' Jr., making it possible to tool (knock off?) another 17 foot mold from the plug. He blocked about eight inches off the transom... the Sweet 16 arrived.

A KNOCK OFF SINCE THE JR. WAS ALREADY SOLD???

PUTTING EMOTION ASIDE, ONE MUST FIRST DISTINGUISH BETWEEN (1) PROTECTED DESIGN (2) SALE OF A MOLD(3)SALE OF A DESIGN (4) UNFAIR COMPETITION (5) NON-PROTECTED DESIGNS (6) TREDENAME/TRADE MARK PROTECTION (6) SALE OF RIGHTS (7) RESTRICTIVE COVENANTS
AH.. ITS MORE FUN TO HAVE AN EMOTIONAL DISCUSSION THAN GET INTO LEGAL MUMBO JUMBO..

".....THEY'RE ALL KNOCKING OFF DONZI.... EXCEPT THE SWEET 16 (FORMULA JR.) WHICH WAS KNOCKED OFF BY NON OTHER THAN DONZI.

Formula Jr
06-10-2001, 03:14 AM
Jim did'nt design the Jr and it isn't the basis of the Donzi 16. Ray Hunt designed the Jr FOR Jim Wynne as a non-production wooden race/test bed for the Volvo outdrive. This wood boat was called the Wynne/Mill. Jim and Walt Walters, created an entirely new plug and mold for the 16. It has not been established if Aronow ever actually owned the Jr's design. We do know that Aronow's Formula Co. never built any. The Thunderbird/Formula Co. started production of Glass Wynne/Mills (Jrs) in '65 and the last production year I have heard of is '71. They are not as rare as I once thought and they are around if you look. With all the research Mike Aronow put into his book, this one little error on the design of the 16 is easy to overlook. The 16 isn't a copy. Its the original Donzi.


[This message has been edited by Formula Jr (edited 06-10-2001).]

Desert Fox
06-10-2001, 05:26 AM
Jr.:
The original Donzi 16 foot was the 17 foot Jim Wynne-designed Wyn-Mill II . I have a photo where Jim won the Paris Six hour Marathon and took a picture with the boat and trophys.

Although itisinteresting, upon what source do you base your information?

Formula Jr
06-10-2001, 10:12 AM
I have a 66 jr, and for the past three years I've been trying to connect the development dots to Donzi. They never quite line up due to the loose assocciation Wynne had with Aronow. Thats what makes the history alittle more complicated than "King of Thunderboat Row." The Vee is 24 degrees, just like the 16 but it is no where near the Donzi in quality.
http://www.epud.net/~owen/henry2.gif

[This message has been edited by Formula Jr (edited 06-10-2001).]

DonziDave
06-10-2001, 11:43 AM
OK - Here's another one to think about.
Back in the early 70's during the Holman/Moody marine era here on Lake Wylie, they did some engine-drive installations for "CHAMP". Two of them that were bought by friends were identical to the Donzi 18 except they had wrap around seating and the engine hatch had a tall curved hump - much taller than a barrelback. The seat backs followed the curve of the hatch.
They were really great boats and we had a blast with them.
Someone out there may be able to add more on the history of the "CHAMP".
Dave

BigGrizzly
06-10-2001, 07:53 PM
Be carefull guys Allan Brown already explained this to you guys once before. I don't care what that book says, Brownie is right. I lived for Donzi and offshore racing then, never missed a Hennesy or Benny Hana GP from the early 60's when Dick Burtrm brough up the Moppis and docked them at Dale's instead of Kings Grant.

Randy

ALLAN BROWN
07-27-2001, 10:20 AM
RAY HUNT DID PATENT THE VEE HULL. THE MAJOR CLAIM OF HIS PATENT WAS A FLOODING KEEL WHICH WOULD SET THE CHINES ON THE WATER TO INCREASE STABILITY AT REST. HE SUED ALLMAND BOAT COMPANY IN 1968 FOR PATENT INFRINGEMENT ON BEHALF OF BERTRAM BOAT. I WAS THEN PRESIDENT OF HMMBBA, (HIALEAH MICKEY MOUSE BOATBUILDERS ASSN, AND SEEING THE FUTURE EXPANSION OF THE SUIT, GOT ALL THE GUYS TO CHIP IN $1000 EACH (BIG MONEY THEN!). WE HIRED OUR OWN ATTORNEYS. ONE OF OUR GUYS, DON WOLLARD, FOUND PRIOR ART WHICH KILLED THE PATENT.

HUNT DID NOT DESIGN THE WYM-MIL. JIM AND WALT DID. (I HELPED BUILD THE ORIGINAL BOAT AT ABBEY BOAT WORKS IN 1963) JIM RACED IT IN PARIS IN 1963.

ARONOW NEVER OWNED THE DESIGN. ARONOW NEVER SOLD THE DESIGN. T-BIRD BOUGHT IT FOR SPITE AFTER 1965, FROM WYNNE, WHO HAD SPLIT FROM WALTERS. SOUNDS LIKE A *&^%$#@ SOAP OPERA.

THE 16' WAS 100% ORIGINAL, AS WERE THE 19', 28' AND 35'. P.S. ANYONE WHO THINKS THE 16' LOOKS LIKE THE JUNIOR IS REASONABLY STUPID.

AB

Formula Jr
07-27-2001, 04:29 PM
This is awsome history here. You are saying that Wynne-Walters drafted the drawings for the Wyn-Mil II. That pretty much contradicts every thing in print and certain quotes from Wynne himself, who said Aronow got him started designing boats. So that would mean the Wyn-Mil II was their very first clean sheet design and that the 16 was their second design. How did the Aqua Hunter differ from the 233? I'm assuming the 233 was a derivitive design based on the Aqua Hunter.

By the way, on Ebay there was an auction for just an original page out of an old
magazine profiling your Donzi Baby Win of Miami-Nassau. It went for over $10!
Thats gotta make anyone proud.

Looks like I've pretty much researched myself right out of the Donzi registry........ ;)

oldLenny
07-27-2001, 06:44 PM
Formula and ALLAN, I bought the ad on E-Bay. It was too cool to pass up knowing the people I have "netted" with here and the history behind it all. Heck, the new shop doesn't yet have a DONZI in it, but it is sure getting all the photo shoots/placards and memorbilia in it... :D and anyone ever wondering where the "MARK V ZODIAK" came from look at the Classic 18...

roadtrip se
07-27-2001, 11:18 PM
Okay Len,
I am really starting to wonder about your quote/unquote "Donzi search". Let me serve notice that I'm calling you on the carpet on your true intent. Are you ever going to buy a Classic or what??????????
I come to Seattle quite often as of late on business. We live in Texas. If you can find a boat on a decent trailer anywhere in the western US, I will drag the the thing to the Canadian border for a small fee. Something like my fuel and maybe a couple of northwest micro brews. Now get serious and step up. Transportation is handled.
As for neat stuff. Do you know where we might find a decent portrait of the Don? We would like to honor the man with a place in our new lake house.
Ask others on this board, I am not bashful about getting out on the road. Find something and it's coming north. Your search area just expanded..... Todd

Formula Jr
07-27-2001, 11:38 PM
http://www.boattraderonline.com/addetail.html?1202815

Hornet III and they are giving it away...........

P.S. I have a feeling the broker is reading this board.......

Dr. Dan
07-28-2001, 08:58 AM
:eek: Len, check out these web sites, www.h2operformance.com (http://www.h2operformance.com) and www.nwoffshore.com (http://www.nwoffshore.com) , the first site allows you to check around for all brands for sale, great tool to check values in different markets. Northwest, outside of the best Bikini Section I've seen,has some Donzis periodically listed under there classified section. ie. '76 16 383 Mopar only $5200,on the other extreme '99 16 for $19500, with 5 years left on factory warranty. They just sold a dynamite 22 for a good price given that it basically a brand new boat, I believe the pictures are still posted. Good Luck, hell with an offer like Roadtrips' I'd expect to see some photos of your new rig soon!...Doc

Tomahawk
07-28-2001, 09:25 PM
WOW! I know that one photo doesn't tell the whole story but, that is a great looking Hornet. I'd try to get a dual axle trailer but,Len, a lot of guys on the East Coast would give their left one for a Hornet that looks that good. Check it out and good luck. Keep the faith brother!

Moody Blu'
07-29-2001, 11:55 AM
wow i have learned more history reading this topic than the book "king of thunderboat row"
It feels good to be chatting with some of the people that were directly involved in the start of donzi.
My ex girlfriends grandmother was friends with don arnow, I thought that was really cool!
to bad customer service for donzi sucks donkey nutz :eek:
I tried to get a price for a new seat for my classic and the guy called me back and said that they never returned his call and he called 5 times. :eek:

Formula Jr
07-29-2001, 12:04 PM
Careful there '71. The Author of "Thunderboat Row" is a regular poster here and
Having meet Mike Miller, The Marketing Director for Donzi, I can say they are good people doing their best work.

If you need an interior on a '71, call Built-Rite at (904) 259-4807

boldts
07-29-2001, 10:56 PM
Interesting that if you go to Doug's Inboard Boats where the Hornet III is being sold, it lists for $7,800 instead of the $8,800 that is in Boat Trader. It also has the wrong picture attached to the listing at the dealer's website. It looks like a very nice Donzi, although if I could afford to purchase it, I'd have to put a dual axle with brakes for the haul back to Ohio. Len, Tom is correct. A fine examble like that would be wanted by many East Coast boaters including me. Just not the right time for me to be looking at boats right now. :(

Formula Jr
07-30-2001, 01:50 AM
Yes, Scott very observant of you. Thats why I think the dealer is monitoring this site, cause it wasn't listed as a Hornet III till shortly after my post - and the price changed.
I was basing my recommendation on the $7800 number. Glad somebody else saw it cause I thought for a while that I was seeing things.

Moody Blu'
07-31-2001, 11:23 AM
Wow Michael arnow regularly posts on this site cool!
My girlfreinds grand mother use to hang out with don. maybe if mike were to drop me a line he might find an old friend of his dad.

Formulajr, you may have met the marketing director for donzi, but the fact remains that a donzi dealer called the factory to find out about a seat for me and NO ONE CALLED BACK not even after the dealer called 5 times REPEATEDLY.The dealer said donzi had been really hurting the dealership due to slow response time.
I think that would be more along the lines of CUSTOMER SERVICE than marketing.
Though my good friend works for armani collezioni and he deals with the stores who carry there line. so maybe mike miller does control customer service.
If he does then he needs to do something about the response time for a query about any part for a donzi , let alone a seat.

built rite sounds good for a seat but if you want to do a restoration perfect everything has to be oem specs.( I think I will get seats once the outdrive is in place).
sorry if I sound like an ass but that is how it went down when I called. I dont feel like that is GOOD customer service.

Formula Jr
07-31-2001, 01:02 PM
Built-Rite IS OEM for your boat.

blackhawk
08-08-2001, 10:10 PM
Back to the U-17 and U-19. They disconyinued production of the Unlimiteds because sales were down. The 4-Winns name did not project a "performance" image. Plus the article in Hot Boat didn't help. The boat that hot boat tested was set up for a "performance" driver.

Scott Pearson
08-08-2001, 10:24 PM
Blu,

Jr. is right. Built-Rite is OEM. John Harmon and his past family have been doing Donzi interior forever. They where Donzi's #1 Supplier for interior years back.

Built-Rite is the best! The craftsmanship is out of this world. There is NO...IF, ANDS, or BUTS about it.

(NJ)Scott