Power Boat, are these guys for real?

[Barry Phillips]

Just read the test on the Silver Special
Edition 22 in January's Power Boat. Are they
for real? In thier openion this HP500 22' is
overpowered, maybey at 90K overpriced, but not
overpowered. I drove a 496Mag equiped boat
in September and came away feeling it could
use a suppercharger. PowerBoat gave a tested
top speed of 74.8 mph on radar which is just
getting started in a 22. How many 22s on this
site can run 80+.

Mayby they have been testing to many v6
bowriders or they just don't get it, a little
chine walk is good for the soul. Maybey they
should run 90+ in GEOO's Mighty Mouse.

Just my 2¢ SO-SLO

[Formula Jr]

I am like, soooo tired of mickey mouse reviews. Donzi should and will get back to making boats that are not for the regular Joe. Thats what they were. If ya don't like the thrill, or can't handle a boat like this, then don't buy it. Donzi looks to be pushing the edge again. And thats really, really, really on track by me. I would love to buy a boat that at least scarred me a little right out of the box. Hell, I'd even sign a waver. They make 'um, we drive 'um. Thats the deal, and no snivlers if its too much boat. The review guys can go to hell, and back to stuffing bayliners for all I care........
Donzi is back. They're taken the field again. All is right with the world...........

[HP 600SC]

How in the world do they come up with 74.8?
I radar'ed that boat when I drove it at 78.6
and my 2000 22 with a HP-500 Carb run's 85.4
all day on GPS, and on a good cool day 87+
I will not renew my sub. to powerboat......
Seem's like the company's that spend a lot
to advertise in there mag. get better reviews
than one's that dont!

[Barry Phillips]

Sorry about the typos. I am a better designer
than a speller, good thing I am married to a
magazine editor.

SO-SLO

[CDMA]

I too was very suprised to hear their comments regardaing the handling. I mean I have been in a 22 with a 496 HO and thought for sure it could use more power? Ted, why did they have such a problem with that boat?? Is there something specific to that boat which makes it "lean hard to one side under acceleration" or "hop when turning"??? Does yours do that as well??? I just don't understand.

Chris

[SundanceKid]

Powerboat definately has some issues in their reviews. They did give a good review fror the 45 Daytona. 84.7 is definately moving for a 7 ton boat and they apparently liked it. But who knows, maybe it is the advertising thing, after all, Baja always gets good reviews! :confused:

[SundanceKid]

I remember going 72 in a 22 with a 454 at the 2001 dealer meeting (summer 2000) and that was definately a lot of fun being so close to the water, almost as much as the 38 Daytona! :D

[Dr. Dan]

I agree, this is a negative review, and then they recommend less power? I just don't get it, I'd chew some editorial ass if I was Donzi, I thought the article stunk and does not do the boat justice, or our brand! What the @#*!%!... :mad: ...Doc

[Woodsy]

I am not defending the PB article, but I do have a few points to ponder....

You guys have to remember, that there are very few 22' Vee hulls in the 75mph range. None of those boats have as little freeboard as our beloved Donzi's. These guys drive big boats in open water. A small boat with that kind of hp obviously scared 'em a little. Thats a good thing... those magazine testers are soooo high & mighty!

Ted, your boat is faster because of the Imco shorty with the nose cone. Your numbers show the 5-6mph improvement IMCO claims for the shorty with the cone. I also think the top end of a carbureated model will be a little higher. However, it may have been a hot humid day when it was tested in FL. You can easily lose 2-3mph because of the weather. Just ask anyone who boats on Havasu.

As far as the ill manners goes, its possible to have some serious torque twist depending on your prop selection etc. My 454MAG doesn't really have any handling issues I would consider serious but it does give a little twist if you back off the throttle quickly. However I know someone with a '01 22 Classic 496HO that drags alot of tab to keep his boat from listing hard to port...

Chris, you are a spoiled (by GEOO) speed hungry soon be naval architect... of course you thought it needed more, you are building the ultimate 22 Classic!! PS: How are your classes going? I hope its going well as it is crunch time. Keep me posted!

As for the PB article, I think they were right on about the price, 90K for a 22 is pretty steep price... even if they are my favorite boat. I do think the keel is a little too rounded as well, maybe a little sharper or a little flatter ala a Steve Stepp design might work a little better, Mine works well for the power I have... for now...

I do have an idea though... Chris, do you have access to a hydrodynamic modeler? Maybe a skeg (similar to what the unlimited hydro's run on the front sponson, some of the tournament ski boats have them as well) located on the centerline of the hull in the middle of the running surface might help as far as high speed trackingetc... just an idea.

Woodsy :D

[BigGrizzly]

I have a low mid 80's boat without a impco shorty. I have gobs of torque and horspower and the dyno sheets to prove it. It took me the better part of the spring and early summer to deal with the listing problem on my 22 Criterion. Part of it was due to the BravoI prop. I tries a standard one and two lab finished props by Merc. All were a disaster after 75mph. I n fact my son refused to ride with me in that boat at that speed. He has been at speeds that people dream about and this was no fun to him. When I gave it throttle it would flatside in a hurry, then pull back on the throttle and it would jump the other way. It was so bad that the passinger would have to be right next to me to slow it down. Now then at 80mph chine walk was vishous. Than along came a Turbo engineer and proped me up and most of the problem was gone. Then there was a little invention of mine (now pat.pending) and now 80's are great just ask madpoddle. Oh yes I too have a nose cone and that doesn't help either.
Woodsey Havasu is a bad example there is a altitude to deal with as well as a weird air density factor found only in that area and just north Reno. I have been there and deal with jetting in these areas quite frequently. Now Ted's boat is in florida and I have seen it run in 85->90% humitity. he wasn't broken in yet and still ran in the 80 mark. carbureted versons are much more affected by humitity thaninjected versons. No offence to Steve Stepp but that doesn't help, infact when they start to chine walk hold on its like riding on marbles--not fun, I'd rather go out to dinner with my ex-wife than that. I will bet that they trimmed it too high trying to air it out and with that BravoI NOT GOOD, its tap dance city then. You are right almost all 22, and most fast 18 have to drop the tab due to the nattow hull and the prop torque of the steep pitch prop.
Yes the price may be high, but if you want a LIMITED production then pay for it. If you want 600=HP from Keith Echart it will cost $20.000 with out a distributor. To buy a Grimes 700->800hp twister engine it will cost between $29,000_>$38,000. How much do you think a hp500 and xr drive cost, I think around $40,000->$52,000, wit6hout the boat. My Criterion when new listed for $35,000 in 1981. In short --"If you want to play the role than you have to pay the toll."

Randy

[Philip47]

Randy, when you lettin us in on the "little invention"??????

[marcdups]

Philip, Randy,s little invention is in one of the posts, just cannot remember which, search the archives, maybe.

Towel Boy!!

Happy holidays to all!! :D :D

[CDMA]

Woodsy,

Not to sure about the "ultimate 22 thing" but I am trying. Crunch time is over thank god. It went alright could have been better but what is passed is passed.

I was not taken back by the speed numbers or anything more the handling comments. It would be nice if my boat ran fast but that is very secondary to me. Whether I go 75 or 95 I don't want to have to deal with any of those funky handling charecteristics. If my boat does that it will have a forsale sign on it within 2 weeks. Speed will come as a by product and the boat will only go as fast as I feel it can go while still being rock steady. Too many boats out there are improperly set up for high speed running and people wonder why they seem dangerous or squirely (sp). The reason I haven't droped a big 383 into my 18 is cause it is not ready from a rigging standpoint yet. BEFORE I do that I want external steering and a bravo until then it is 260 hp for me.

Regarding the bottom design I was noting the very rounded bottom of my 22 the other day as it was sitting next to my old style 18 with the sharp keel. I am as big a donzi nut as all of you guys are and they are a part of my blood but I am not sure in terms of a pure speed and handling point of view if they are the best designs out there ( refering to the classics only). Seeing the classics next to Pauls superboat and a more modern v hulls you see a few really interesting differences regarding chines, the fullness of the bow, and the pad. I am not totally agains't the idea of a pad. After quite a bit of time in Paul's boat as well as a few others they really seem to have their merits while outweighing their downfalls. Maybe it is because of the outboards but both padded boats I have run in have had zero chine walk at over 70 and 80 mph respectively. It really is so hard to compare all of this though. I mean to really compare a padded boat to a non padded boat you really would need the same exact boat with and without a pad and none of us really have that option. Well back to what I was saying, the Donzi's are great boats and I wouldn't own anything else but I am not sure anymore if they are the end all be all in terms of small deep v hull design. All I am saying is that our hulls in many cases were designed 30 years or more ago and there has been advancements in hull design since then that our boats do not have but I guess that is why they are classics.

Woodsy, I do have a hydrodynamic computer modeler, a tow tank, a flow channel and a model maker at school. All of which I will get into really using next year. Geoo and I actually have talked about such a fin but to a little more than just a plain fin. We actually have thought about making a sort of small hydrofoil for Geoo's boat to help air it out and get some more speed. Really wouldn't be too hard. The hard part is just figuring the right angle and heck if you mess up just try again. The only thing I am not sure is how it would react in a turn. Anyone who ever has driven a ski boat knows that you can get those things to swap ends with the a flick of the wrist. Also not sure what kind of funky vortex effects the fin might have in turns or maybe possible propellor interferance.

Not trying to step on any toes here just trying to have an open mind. Anyway I am leaving for 2 months in a 2 weeks so I got to get my $.10 in now. ;) ;) ;)

Chris

[RickSE]

You don't have to pay 90K for this boat! One can be had for quite a bit less. ;)

When I rode in the #1 boat this summer I noticed it took very little trim to push it into the mid 70's. Grizz may be onto something in that they trimmed it to high. Havasu is at 400 ft. elevation and humidity is usually below 10%. If you think that's bad try running and jetting at 7000 ft. elevetion, my nearest lake.

Chris, my impression is that non-pad deepvee boats can run faster in rough water than the pad boats. The pad seems to bounce you around a lot more than the vee in the rough stuff. I'd rather have the rough water capability than the speed since I seldom run in smooth water. How many people still build classic deepvee boats with no pad? Donzi, Cigarette(?), Magnum (27).

[CDMA]

Rick,

I too have heard that pad boats are worse in rough water all I can say is that I was very suprised how well the 21 superboat ran in some pretty nasty chop. I am sure the extra length had a lot to do with it but this year I was in my 18 and Paul was in his superboat on the same day and let me tell you we were taking a lot more of a beating than he was. I am sure the 22 vs the superboat would be a more equal comparison but still... I doubt I would want a pad on a classic inboard donzi but they sure do seem to have their advantages in other applications and I think the superboat, and I am sure others, show that a deep v can use a pad and still retain a decent rough water ride. Pad aside I think a lot has changed design wise in deep v's since our beloved classics were designed. I have had both my classics next to fountains, advantages, superboats, baja's, formaulas and so forth and was amazed in the basic shape difference ( size difference aside). Still won't even have anyhting but a classic in my driveway but hey can't I change the bottom :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Chris

[Barry Phillips]

Chris I ran a 21'Superboat Ledgend this summer
with a 200HP Yamaha on it. We were side by
side for about a mile running at times 67mph.
althought the day was fairly calm we were both
hitting wakes from every direction, my wife
commented that I should buy her a helmet. The
Super Boat seemed to chine walk all over
the place, at times it was almost on it's
rails. My little 18 got some air but never
twisted out of shape. I checked out the
Ledgend on Superboat's website and it has a
21' deadrise, I did not see a pad nor a
rocker in the hull, it looks like a
traditional vee bottom. The hull is only
1100.00 lbs without power add 400.00 lbs
for a V6 outboard and this one light setup,
lighter than my 18. A friend of his with a
24'454 Checkmate commented that he did not
think he could run with me in choppy water
conditions, I was supprised. I enjoyed
the competition and conversation afterward.
Although the Ledgend 21 looks a lot like a
Donzi 22 it's very different.

SO-SLO

[PaulO]

Baja did a lot of different hulls through the years and for all I know, the 24 you spoke of may have a shallow V. The 21 Superboat does have a 6" pad and no offense to anyone but, the guy with the 200 outboard and chinewalking problem had other problems causing it. Maybe loose motor mounts or steering play, less than ideal setback and/or engine height etc. The 6" pad goes a long long way in reducing the chinewalking. That and that alone is the purpose of it. Chris is absolutely correct that the 21 Superboat outperforms the 18 classic and the 20' cigarette in both rough water and calm. I can attest to this because I have had all three. What the Superboat gives up in deadrise, it makes up for in stability and the ablitiy to cross confused wakes/chop without being upset. In theoretical conditions, the steeper deadrise of the cigarette can enable you to take bigger wakes/chop/swells head on. In the real world, you are seldom able to take all the slop from the direction you would desire. This is where the Superboat does well. Take those wakes at any angle and any combination and you just go over them.
PaulO
P.S. I still love the classics though, especially the 22.

[Barry Phillips]

Paul O: My 18 rarely twist even in
confused water but dose launch when
I give to much trim, I do not have trim
tabs and I'm shure they would help.
The guy with Superboat also had another
friend running what I think was called
an Advenger with a 200 hp Mec.
he was no competition for my 18, I
walked away from him. The guy with the
Superboat was unhappy with the set up.
The boat was a mid eighties model in
great condition, he claimed the boat
could do 75 and with a boat & motor
combined weight of 1,500lbs it should
have. I really did not think I could keep
up with him, but he could not pull away
from me. I think he was running
to much trim, because he was twisting all
over the place.
His friend with the 24' Checkmate said
it was a poor rough water boat , it was
of water for a engine rebuild.
SO-SLO