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knee deep
10-16-2002, 07:37 PM
Well Guys it looks like the time has come! After a bunch of frustration with various items on my 18 I have leased a warehouse for the biz that just happens to be perfect to take the "old red monster" apart and rebuild her top to bottom or bottom to top whatever.

Fortunately I live and work in Fort Lauderdale the yachting capital of the world and am heavily into the yacht business.

Unfortunately when you ask a question at the local watering hole there are 5 Captains and 5 right answers.

The hull was bottom painted and looks like **** most of the coatins I have looked at such as Imron, Sterling, and Awlgrip in its various forms all say the are for above the waterline.

The point of this lengthy diatribe is that while I have access to whatever I want I can't decide which is the way to go. They tell me gelcoat is a royal pain in the a#* to apply and of course if you get a scratch or ding good luck filling it and matching it.

I'd love some opinions what did you use? How old is your paint job? How resistant is it to fading and oxidation?

I found and lost a web site that could mix orignal gel coat for any manufacturer and year. Of course I can't find it now, anyone know of it?

Thanks! eek!

oldLenny
10-16-2002, 09:14 PM
Hot topic... :rolleyes: scared to really comment on this as there will be 500 other right opinions. The web-site that matches most everything belongs to "Spectrum Color" in Seattle.

I would paint. Get epoxy involved. Get Scott Pearson involved...

All the LARGE yachts here 100-ish' and new (built here) are painting their hulls right from the get go. De'fevers', Hatteras etc do the same...as well as many others. Gelcoat CANNOT be more than 15-20 mils thick, period. It WILL crack. Applying this to an already gel-coated surface that is of that thickness (or close to that thickness)is a problem in the making. (Mine and other local boat builders opinions only :rolleyes: ) Gelcoat is only flexible to a certain point but it affords far better water resistance properties. I would be sanding, filling, fairing and epoxy primer-ing and spraying if it were me. It also allows for a great number of choices with regards to color and "effects". Gel-coat does not.

Keep in mind. These 5-10 million $$$ yachts don't get trailered and do last...people pay for them to remain as "show-pieces"...

I painted a sailboat about mid 1985 and sold it recently. NEVER washed it, never waxed it, stored it in salt for LOOONG periods, no bottom paint, and it looked like the day it came out of the shop (other than scratches) 17 years ago. I used "Endura" on it...

David Ochs
10-16-2002, 11:46 PM
I guess my first question would be, does the boat live in the water or on a trailer. Mine with Awlgrip lives on a trailer, and so far everything looks great(even after eight years). Although I've been lucky not to have any serious dings, touching up a chip is a challenge. Just as you mentioned for gel coat.

MR MAGOO
10-17-2002, 06:22 AM
I have a 38 Top Gun Cigarette that is all paint. Everything above the waterline looks incredible but the bottom has many bubbles in the paint from leaving it in the water for the season.

Is this from bad prep, or will this happen when paint is used below the waterline???

RH
10-17-2002, 07:46 AM
I had my Century Arabian V-Drive Awl Gripped back in 1992. I took a brown colored hull and did it to a year newer factory red with a creme bottom with a boot stripe. It was astonishing how nice that it turned out. The boat was stored in a building and is a tralier boat, but to this day looks brand new. I was very satisfied with the adhesion qualities of this paint. You have to remember that this is ten years old already, so I am sure that there are new formulations of great products on the market today. I like the ability of color choices with the paint option. Keep us posted on your choice.
RH

HyperDonzi
10-17-2002, 03:14 PM
The last few times I have read a Gel or Paint thread, it seemed like this was the "summer of the gel" but last year seemed to be the "summer of paint"

Jamesbon
10-19-2002, 12:55 AM
In MY OPINION, I chose gel over paint as it seemed like the only permanent, long term and extremely durable solution. Both my Donzi and Rabco were painted, and both had minor cases of peeling in one spot or another. Bare in mind though, that the Donzi's paint was over 13 years old. However, the Rabco's Imron is less than two years, but enjoys extremely minor peeling on the bottom. Additionally, the previous owner applied the Imron, so...

If gel is scratched, it's easily buffed out...due to the thickness.

See my allmost completed "documentary" (http://www.donzi.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005610) on applying gel.

Scott Pearson
10-20-2002, 05:17 PM
I like paint. Gel is hard to work with and a bitch to buff.
As far as peeling under the waterline. Thats due to the paint still having solvents left in the film. This is most likely because the wrong solvents where used when it was done.

People who know my boat know how nice the finish is. I used all PPG.

I will be using all paint on all my Donzi restorations.

(NJ)Scott

harbormaster
10-20-2002, 05:37 PM
So Scott P

Are saying that you do not use Gelcoat because paint is easier?

If Gelcoat is hard to sand then maybe it is more durable than your paint?

How many times have you personally done a gelcoat job on a boat?

Are using paint because you are more comfortable with it?

Scott Pearson
10-20-2002, 06:02 PM
Scot,
I think paint is better all around. I have done boats with both Gel and Paint. I really think gel is to much work for the average Joe. Also you can use paint that gets just as hard if not harder to buff then gel. I have used one system of paint that was harder then any gel job that I buffed.

I fell gell has to much up keep. You always have to buff or polish it to keep any shine. Paint you dont.

Gel fade real fast...ie. RED

Interesting.....one of the world nicest Sport fishing boats (Buddy Davis) Uses only paint.

(NJ)Scott

Rootsy
10-20-2002, 07:35 PM
Scott P,

I assume you go the BC/CC route with the PPG line correct? DPLF epoxy underneath? What do you use for a blocking / filler primer (K36?) and what BC and CC do you use specifically for your applications? Any other pertinent deviations from recommended usage (catalysts, hardeners, reducers)? i truly love ppg products for my refinishing projects... but alas i am still far from professional grade... but i'm workin on it!!!

AND LORD KNOWS my red gelcoat is the biggest pain in the butt on god's green earth to keep clean and most of all mirror quality... it is sooooooo porous it isn't funny and it just sucks in every mineral in the water and speck of dirt in the air... even the 3M "tacky suck everything out of every pore" rag won't get it all... actually there is one area near th bow light that has some tiny pinholes...

hmmmmm red sides... yeah... i like that idea... might as well add it to the WISH list...

rong
10-20-2002, 08:56 PM
I guess there are some things to consider when choosing between paint or gel.
#1. If your going gel, work is not the issue. I find it sands easily but still a lot of work. Pride takes over here as well as the depth of look obtained as the end result.
#2. The color red in gel will fade in constant day after day of sunlight. It is able to be buffed. Is the boat covered on a trailer or on a dock all year in direct sunlight?
#3. If something hits gel it scracthes. It is either able to be filled in or buffed out depending on severity.
#4. Paint because of the hard epoxies will either resist or chip eek! Some systems are not repairable requiring painting of the whole side to get back to original condition. Heard there is a repairable system but have yet to see it.

Buddy Davis and other high end yachts are constantly in the water and exposed to salt.
Maintenance on such a item is kept down by paint but when repaint is needed, it is usually not an issue.

My two cents.

Scott Pearson
10-21-2002, 06:15 AM
Jamie,
I worked for PPG as a Territory Manager (Factory Sales Rep)for 11 years. Up until last October. When PPG bought ICI they gave all the ICI guys our jobs. About 80 of us where let go. Guys with 20 and 30 years also....its a shame. Anouther 20 or so guys just quit because they where fed up with the BS. Any whoooo. I really dont miss it at all. It was great the first 6 years...but then things changed. It wasnt about selling paint anymore. It was about useless programs and paper work. No more customer relation. PPG products are great.....But like I said its not about paint anymore.

OK....so now that I have that out of my system. I used K36 as a primer surfacer. DPLF as a sealer. DBC Basecoat. And 2021 clear with DCX9 Hardner.

The DCX hardner is slower and should be used in a forced dry situation. But it has increadable mar resistence. Also if you need to buff it....do it as soon as its cured (24 hours at 70 degrees) if not....you better get a seat for the buffer. Its a bitch!

Hope this answers some questions.

(NJ)Scott

mattyboy
10-21-2002, 01:13 PM
Scott,
this is very helpful, my bud's 20 cig project is at this stage, we were told any paint will peel and blister left in the water, imron awlgrip what ever paint, got one quote for re gel at 9k eek!
that's with us removing everything. we are gonna go paint, just gotto find a reasonable ,quality paint guy to do the job. my paint is blistering and peeling below the water line but it still shines

Matt

PPG make any other colors than orange wink :p :D

knee deep
10-26-2002, 05:01 AM
I have decided to use the fairly new Awlcraft 2000. It is designed for dirty environments and can be wet sanded and buffed. Properly mixed it can be rolled and tipped and looks just like it was sprayed. A friend of mine had the hull on his 95' $5m yacht done this way looks awesome!